Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

ITER Progress Report and Update

Discuss research and forecasts regarding hydrocarbon depletion.

ITER Progress Report and Update

Unread postby dbruning » Thu 29 Mar 2007, 13:54:46

http://www.iter.org/a/index_nav_6.htm

Preparations ITER Site started 29 January, 2007 - They have marked trees not to be cut down, and perhaps a fence will be be started. The have to clear 75 hectares.

Broader Approach agreement between EU and Japan signed
5 February, 2007 - The agreement they initially made has been re-signed.

Progress on ITER International School 7 February, 2007 - A school is planned for their kids.

EU establishes the European Domestic Agency 27 March, 2007 -
They've formed another organization to handle the EU contributions to ITER.

And that's it for the update on what they've posted for this year so far. A fence, some trees, signing an existing agreement, and building a school.

At one point I had kind of looked at ITER as maybe a Global Effort, you know, a Manhatten Project, but on a planetary scale.

I no longer feel that is the case.

The intent may have been there, and the eventual goal is a worthy one, but I do not see the momentum nor will to kick this into high gear. And we needed high gear in 1985 when it was first suggested. 22 years later, and we haven't even cleared the land or built a fence.

Ok, I know construction isn't schedules to start until 2008, but why has this taken so damned long to get started?!?
User avatar
dbruning
Coal
Coal
 
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed 13 Sep 2006, 03:00:00
Location: Vancouver Island

Re: ITER Progress Report and Update

Unread postby Jack » Thu 29 Mar 2007, 15:27:03

Remember the superconducting supercollider?

Due to funding cuts, it only got to the point of being a hole in the ground in North Texas.

I suspect this won't even accomplish hole in the ground status.

Doom...it's what's for dinner! 8)
Jack
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4929
Joined: Wed 11 Aug 2004, 03:00:00

Re: ITER Progress Report and Update

Unread postby sameu » Thu 29 Mar 2007, 15:30:51

hihi
sounds like fussion will be ready just in time to resolve our energy problems
User avatar
sameu
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 579
Joined: Thu 18 Aug 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Belgium, Europe

Re: ITER Progress Report and Update

Unread postby Madpaddy » Thu 29 Mar 2007, 16:51:14

I'm with Jack,

I reckon they'll get more energy from burning the trees they cut down then they ever will from the reactor.
User avatar
Madpaddy
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2043
Joined: Fri 25 Jun 2004, 03:00:00

Re: ITER Progress Report and Update

Unread postby Newsseeker » Thu 29 Mar 2007, 19:40:33

Alas, must all things come to an end in such a way?
Newsseeker
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1126
Joined: Thu 12 May 2005, 03:00:00

Re: ITER Progress Report and Update

Unread postby mrflora » Thu 29 Mar 2007, 20:26:49

Alas, poor Newsseeker! What do you mean "all things"?

ITER is moving slowly, it is true. The prototype could easily have been working by this time except for politics. However, the science is sound, and it appears that the economics of D-T fusion are acceptable (if not astonishingly good).

Keep in mind that the U.S. has spent only about $17 billion on controlled fusion research since the 1950's. Compare this to the Pentagon's current budget of about $500 billion for a single year. We could ramp up fusion work dramatically if we had to.

Regards,
M.R.F.
"... coal and oil were depleted... increased demands for food cut off conversion of the agricultural surplus into fuel alcohol... solar power... as much a dream as atomic energy..." - Jack Williamson, "The Crucible of Power" (1939)
User avatar
mrflora
Peat
Peat
 
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue 12 Apr 2005, 03:00:00

Re: ITER Progress Report and Update

Unread postby Twilight » Sun 01 Apr 2007, 21:42:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mrflora', 'K')eep in mind that the U.S. has spent only about $17 billion on controlled fusion research since the 1950's. Compare this to the Pentagon's current budget of about $500 billion for a single year. We could ramp up fusion work dramatically if we had to.

No, you couldn't.

Specialisation of labour. You can divert money from one area to another, but you can't divert people. The complexity of our society has reached an extent where redeploying a scientist or engineer offers few advantages over training a new one from scratch, or poaching one from a poorer country.

Few people appreciate how long it takes to train additional new specialists, especially in an area as complex as a very specific branch of physics. Few people appreciate how the reliance on brain drains could become troublesome in a geopolitically toxic world, where everyone's traditional sources of imported manpower could potentially turn unreliable. When the energy crisis bites, I'm going to be wincing at all the attempts by government and venture capital to throw money at the problem, and gasps of incomprehension as it falls to the ground with no-one to catch it.

Oh, it'll get spent alright, if it's there to be spent. But aside from that deliberate waste, my hunch is in the medium term, a lot of people are going to be surprised by just how many opportunities will be passed up for lack of feasibility as a result of skilled labour shortages.

If the US is going to spend as much money on fusion as it does on the military, productively, it's going to have to get used to the fact that the recipients of said cash probably have their parents-to-be dating round about now.

It's not as if the energy giants are busy training a vast new generation of techies in anticipation of Simmons' Energy Apollo/Manhattan Project, is it? On present trends, they're going to struggle to catch up with asset replacement backlogs.
Twilight
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 3027
Joined: Fri 02 Mar 2007, 04:00:00

Re: ITER Progress Report and Update

Unread postby smiley » Mon 02 Apr 2007, 03:39:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he intent may have been there, and the eventual goal is a worthy one, but I do not see the momentum nor will to kick this into high gear. And we needed high gear in 1985 when it was first suggested. 22 years later, and we haven't even cleared the land or built a fence.


The construction of the buildings is peanuts with the task of constructing ITER. That's just concrete and steelwork. This is not a project which can be timed by the delivery of components.

ITER is not something we can built today.

It is requires a number of technological breaktroughs to make it happen. Take for instance the launching system. You have to built some of the most powerful lasers in existence, then you have to combine the laser beams, lead them into the main toroid and focus them on the plasma. These laser mirrors not only have to withstand the lasers, but also the plasma which is glowing at a million degrees, and remain in focus. With current technology that is impossible.

At this stage of the project ITER is mainly delivering technological solutions, not components. Once the technological issues are resolved they can make the components.

If ITER will be delayed it probably will be caused by these technological issues, not by a few meter of fencing which is delivered a week too late.

Personally I am doubtfull if they can make it work and if they can make it work on time. On the other hand if I look at the effort which has been put into it I'd say it has been well worth it. It has provided a major boost to research and technology in the countries involved.
User avatar
smiley
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2274
Joined: Fri 16 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Europe

Re: ITER Progress Report and Update

Unread postby shakespear1 » Mon 02 Apr 2007, 04:26:46

Twilight

You observation about LABOR specialization and training is very astute. I suspect a very small group of people appreciates this problem as usually most just think it is about money.

The Petroleum Industry is learning about this right now. No specialists to be found due to past layoff cycles and reduced enrollments at universities in their PE Departments. :-)
Men argue, nature acts !
Voltaire

"...In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation."

Alan Greenspan
shakespear1
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri 13 May 2005, 03:00:00

Re: ITER Progress Report and Update

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 02 Apr 2007, 09:31:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mrflora', 'K')eep in mind that the U.S. has spent only about $17 billion on controlled fusion research since the 1950's. Compare this to the Pentagon's current budget of about $500 billion for a single year. We could ramp up fusion work dramatically if we had to.

Lets take few dosens of morons, give them $500 billion (or $2 trillion if you wish) and what would you expect to get for that?
Fusion reactor?
No way.
Morons will spend your money, dig up really big hole in the ground, fill it up with concrete, steel, molten lithium and some even more exotic materials. Are you really expecting that this will be working fusion reactor?
OK, lets try to get rid of morons and replace them with team of highly skilled scientists (those are endangered species btw, as I observe that our universities are rather delivering morons these days...).
Now after 20 years of careful planning and $billions or trillions they will succed. You will get several hours or days of quality fusion power and then your reactor will need replacing due to those 14MeV neutrons bastards.
Well there are many things, which no amount of money can buy...
Love, immortality and man made fusion reactor are likely examples...
User avatar
EnergyUnlimited
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 7537
Joined: Mon 15 May 2006, 03:00:00

Re: ITER Progress Report and Update

Unread postby Newsseeker » Mon 02 Apr 2007, 10:26:42

A far sighted government would increase funding in these areas and the manpower would accrue over time. Investing in long range goals is admirable and can only take place under a government that is looking towards the future and not towards short term ephemeral issues and goals.
Newsseeker
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1126
Joined: Thu 12 May 2005, 03:00:00


Return to Peak oil studies, reports & models

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron