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The Great Unraveling

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The Great Unraveling

Unread postby Newsseeker » Tue 20 Mar 2007, 09:44:20

The Great Unraveling
March 16, 2007
By Stephen S. Roach | from Beijing
http://www.morganstanley.com/views/gef/ ... atrick.net

This is a good article on the possible effects of the housing collapse and Greenspan's role in it.
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby Petrodollar » Tue 20 Mar 2007, 10:17:04

...speaking of a possible housing market collaspe in the U.S., this is a rather somber article about the once formidable city that epitomized US industrial might in much of the 20th century (essentially from the 1910s through the early 1980s)

Detroit, home of the U.S. automobile giants, is now a place where many houses are apparently cheaper than cars. I think it safe to say this is what a housing implosion looks like. Its tragic.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070319/ts_ ... detroit_dc

Houses cheaper than cars in Detroit
By Kevin Krolicki
Mon Mar 19, 11:48 AM ET

(excerpt)
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.')..After selling house after house in the Motor City for less than the $29,000 it costs to buy the average new car, the auctioneer tried a new line: "The lumber in the house is worth more than that!"

As Detroit reels from job losses in the U.S. auto industry, the depressed city has emerged as a boomtown in one area: foreclosed property.

It also stands as a case study in the economic pain from a housing bust as analysts consider whether a developing crisis in mortgages to high-risk borrowers will trigger a slowdown in the broader U.S. economy.


(more)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')etroit, where unemployment runs near 14 percent and a third of the population lives in poverty, leads the nation in new foreclosure filings, according to tracking service RealtyTrac.

With large swaths of the city now abandoned, banks are reclaiming and reselling Detroit homes from buyers who can no longer afford payments at seven times the national rate.

Michigan was the only state to see home prices fall in 2006. The national average price rose almost 6 percent but prices slipped 0.4 percent here, according to a federal study.

The state's jobless rate of 7.1 percent in January was also the second highest in the nation, behind only Mississippi.


(tragic commentary on this once thriving suburban city)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')ealtor Ron Walraven had a three-bedroom house in the suburb of Bloomfield Hills that had listed for $525,000 sell for just $130,000 at the auction.

"Once we've seen the last person leave Michigan, then I think we'll be able to say we've seen the bottom," he said.



...Here's the WP article of the day re the "Great Mortgage Meltdown of 2007"...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01054.html

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]The Pros, Getting Conned
A Financial Meltdown, Courtesy of the Big Boys

By Sebastian Mallaby
Monday, March 19, 2007; Page A15

The Great Mortgage Meltdown of 2007 recalls the beginning of the dot-com implosion in 2000. Once again, paper wealth is going up in smoke; once again, Wall Street banks that created the dud securities turn out to have been imperfect guides as to their value. But the current financial meltdown also differs importantly from the tech bust.

The danger is that Congress will see only part of this distinction.


...here's their contrast of the dot.com implosion vs. the mortgage implosion....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')ust as the financial actors in this drama contrast with the day traders of the tech bust, so, too, its real-world victims could hardly be more different. In the wake of the dot-com bomb, it was mainly bright young adventurers who were thrown out of work -- and most of them found new jobs a half-dozen lattes later. The mood of the era was summed up by an advertisement in a sports club window: "Hey, dot-comers, look good when you lose your shirt," it teased, as though the giant tech pop were a dating opportunity.

There's no fodder for advertising laughs in the mortgage debacle. Many of the liar loans and exploding ARMs were extended to low-income families, who now can't meet their payments and face the prospect of eviction. According to the Center for Responsible Lending, one in 10 recent home buyers who are black will lose their properties, 2 1/2 times the likely rate for whites.

If even sophisticated financiers make unrepayable loans, and if the victims of this craziness are families who are too weak to take a blow, perhaps the sophisticates should be reined in by regulation?
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby jbeckton » Tue 20 Mar 2007, 13:12:18

They decline of Detroit is the result of "white flight" and other social problems, more so than the auto industry. Just look at the roaring auto industry in the 70's while Detroit was being abandoned. Most of the auto workers have lived in the surburbs since the 60's and early 70's. The homes in the surburbs just 1-2 miles from the city are often selling for $150,000-$250,000.

Also look at Pittsburgh, the steel mills are almost all gone but the city has not collapsed because it has avoided the social problems better than Detroit.

This article is just a spin.
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby EnergyHog » Tue 20 Mar 2007, 14:43:04

I live and work near Detroit and I can tell you that the housing market has nothing to do with the current state of Detroit.

$29,000 for a house is actually expensive for Detroit.

I know people that paid for a house in Detroit using a credit card, over 15 years ago.

The place has been an absolute disaster for as long as I can remember. Detroit (the city, not the surrounding white flight suburbs) will do good during a depression because nothing will really change.
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby Newsseeker » Tue 20 Mar 2007, 19:47:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyHog', 'I') live and work near Detroit and I can tell you that the housing market has nothing to do with the current state of Detroit.

$29,000 for a house is actually expensive for Detroit.

I know people that paid for a house in Detroit using a credit card, over 15 years ago.

The place has been an absolute disaster for as long as I can remember. Detroit (the city, not the surrounding white flight suburbs) will do good during a depression because nothing will really change.


Sorry to hear that, I hope you are in a safe location...
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby Merlin » Tue 20 Mar 2007, 22:30:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jbeckton', 'T')hey decline of Detroit is the result of "white flight" and other social problems, more so than the auto industry. Just look at the roaring auto industry in the 70's while Detroit was being abandoned. Most of the auto workers have lived in the surburbs since the 60's and early 70's. The homes in the surburbs just 1-2 miles from the city are often selling for $150,000-$250,000.


You may be on the low side on your estimated price. When my company -- an automotive parts manufacturer -- relocated from Chicago to Auburn Hills, MI in 2005, I turned down the transfer because my modest 3-bedroom ranch in Highland, IN would have cost $100K more even then two years ago. At that time, $150,000 would have bought a real dump. You're right. The auto workers don't work in Detroit anymore. They work in the suburbs and the real estate there is very expensive.
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby MonteQuest » Tue 20 Mar 2007, 23:53:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Newsseeker', 'T')he Great Unraveling
March 16, 2007
By Stephen S. Roach | from Beijing
http://www.morganstanley.com/views/gef/ ... atrick.net

This is a good article on the possible effects of the housing collapse and Greenspan's role in it.


And your best analysis of how this is caused by hydrocarbon depletion?
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby pea-jay » Wed 21 Mar 2007, 02:09:39

The Great Unraveling is such an apt term. It works with the housing but it also applies to what the larger economy and society itself will suffer as available energy becomes too scarce to depend on.

We are already unraveling:
* worker expectations of their employer - work goes to the cheapest source
* Access to health care - be prepared to pay or do without
* housing market - see above
* the environment
* basic infrastructure - billions in defered investments to just sustain our grids, water supply transportation etc
* faith in government (okay for some that unraveled long ago)

Energy depletion will ensure the unraveling spreads beyond housing
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 21 Mar 2007, 10:31:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pea-jay', ' ')Energy depletion will ensure the unraveling spreads beyond housing


And how is the current unraveling of the housing market caused by hydrocarbon depletion?
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby seahorse2 » Wed 21 Mar 2007, 11:01:12

Monte,

Its plausible that, if we have hit peak oil as some have suggested, that the housing market boom, a housing boom tied to a fiat currency that is in turn tied to oil production, that the housing boom has peaked and is now declining bc oil production is declining. Like the struggling airline industry and American auto manufactures,the housing industry is struggling because of high energy prices.

If we could get confirmation of peak oil, I don't think anyone would disagree that any economic decline in any industry, including housing, would be related to a decline in world oil production.
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby jbeckton » Wed 21 Mar 2007, 11:14:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse2', 'M')onte,

Its plausible that, if we have hit peak oil as some have suggested, that the housing market boom, a housing boom tied to a fiat currency that is in turn tied to oil production, that the housing boom has peaked and is now declining bc oil production is declining. Like the struggling airline industry and American auto manufactures,the housing industry is struggling because of high energy prices.

If we could get confirmation of peak oil, I don't think anyone would disagree that any economic decline in any industry, including housing, would be related to a decline in world oil production.


The auto problems stem from lack of investment in manufacturing and capital upgrades from US automakers from WWII to now. So we are now competing with companies with the very best technology and factories who don't owe $2000 from the sale of every car to retired workers. They would be screwed energy crisis or not.

Energy prices play a role in housing but not a major role thus far. The housing market was just bloated, its only comming down now as a result.

The airlines have more problems than you can imagine. There is no noticeable or at least decisive connection thus far. Thats what I believe Monte is trying to point out.

The problems can be better linked to an energy surplus of post WWII more so than any shortage now.
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby seahorse2 » Wed 21 Mar 2007, 11:22:37

JB,

There are connections, although bloated, American car companies were doing fine as long as their gas guzzling SUVs were selling, but they aren't now due to high gas prices.

Airlines were doing fine, until the cost of fuel shot up.

There are internal problems with any industry, but high fuel prices can push a struggling industry over the edge.

The dollar used to be linked to gold. In the 70s, it was taken off and a direct link made to oil production (thus petro dollars). As oil flow rises, the numbers of dollars can rise arguable without any significant appreciation (inflation) bc increasing oil production means cheap oil and thus, stong dollars - meaning, plenty of resources to build a vast overconsuming suburban lifestyle. However, when oil production decreases, those dollars become cheap, interest rates have to rise to attract investments dollars into the US, and inflation occurs, thus, homes become unaffordable along with the suburban SUV driving lifestyle.

I've said my peace, don't like to be too disagreeable.
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 21 Mar 2007, 11:28:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse2', 'M')onte,

Its plausible that, if we have hit peak oil as some have suggested, that the housing market boom, a housing boom tied to a fiat currency that is in turn tied to oil production, that the housing boom has peaked and is now declining bc oil production is declining. Like the struggling airline industry and American auto manufactures,the housing industry is struggling because of high energy prices.


You are getting close. One of the resaons the housing industry is struggling is due to higher interest rates to fight inflation, which can easily be tied to higher energy costs due to many factors: primarily, a lack of swing capacity, futures trading, lack of infrastructure, diminishing returns, etc...but the peaking of oil, per se?

For the most part, the troubles stem from subprime lending practices. In other words, leanding money to people who normally could never have qualified for a home loan.

Which is to say that the housing bubble would have popped without hydrocarbon depletion.

The "price" of hydrocarbon depletion has yet to arrive.

If OPEC fails to ramp up production to meet demand this summer, then we will perhaps see that "price" and the direct effects on the housing market.

My point is that many or our economic woes are debt-related and not as a result of hydrocarbon depletion....yet.
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 21 Mar 2007, 11:32:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse2', 'J')B,

There are connections, although bloated, American car companies were doing fine as long as their gas guzzling SUVs were selling, but they aren't now due to high gas prices.


And you can make a case that higher gas prices are due soley to hydrocarbon depletion?

That is forgetting a lot of other factors at play on the price of oil and gas.
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Re: The Great Unraveling

Unread postby jbeckton » Wed 21 Mar 2007, 12:50:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse2', 'J')B,

There are connections, although bloated, American car companies were doing fine as long as their gas guzzling SUVs were selling, but they aren't now due to high gas prices.


Do you honestly believe that the US auto companies would be doing good right now if gas was $0.99 per gallon?

Nope, they are still selling an inferior product, bottom line. Even their "efficient" cars are not selling.
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