[Twilight]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Permanently_Baffled', 'I') wonder though if the GPS road pricing policy is there to make further increases in petrol taxes easier to "sell" to the public?

Or is this a conspiracy far too clever and subtle for our dumb f*ck of a government? :D

[ProfitOfDoom]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')The US Federal Highway and Transportation budget is $275 Billion

[miraculix]

a third component to the equation are the average miles driven.

Due to the denser structure of EU metropolitan areas, people in Europe are driving at lot less than people in the US. Hence, the overall economic impact of rising gasoline cost is cushioned further.

[Pfish]

Just got back from the Dominican Republic. Gas was about $15.25 a US gallon. People were driving around like it was normal.

[Tyler_JC]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ProfitOfDoom', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')The US Federal Highway and Transportation budget is $275 Billion

[Peepers]

This is an excellent thread, with lots of good information. But I have to correct the data on the U.S. Department of Transportation budget. The $275 billion is for the surface transportation program that is renewed every six years (or supposed to be). The $275 billion total is over six years.

Taking all modes into account, the federal amounts for each transportation mode in recent years have been:

Highways - $35 billion (funded heavily by gas taxes)
Aviation - $11 billion (funded heavily by airline ticket taxes etc)
Mass Transit - $5 billion (less than half funded by gas taxes)
Army Corps of Engineers (Ports/Waterways) - $4 billion (funded in part by waterway usage fees and the rest by general revenues)
Amtrak (Railroads) - $1 billion (funded entirely by general revenues; no ongoing federal trust fund or user fee has been enacted by Congress for rail unlike all of the other modes)

Here's the federal funding history for three of those surface transportation modes presented in graph form:



+++++++++++++++++++

Here's another bit of interesting information, though it's getting a bit dated (they have done some updates since). I don't agree with everything they say, but there is some useful information in here...

http://www.icta.org/press/release.cfm?news_id=12

STUDY RELEASED BY THE INTERNATIONAL CENTER FOR TECHNOLOGY ASSESSMENT (CTA) DETAILS OVER $1.69 TRILLION IN SOCIAL COSTS AND GOVERNMENT 'WELFARE' FOR GAS INDUSTRY

MIDDLE EAST TENSIONS AND GLOBAL WARMING MAJOR CONTRIBUTORS TO MASSIVE INCREASE IN THE REAL COST OF GAS



Washington D.C. -- A report released today by the International Center for Technology Assessment (CTA) calculates that the actual cost of a gallon of gas to the American consumer could be as high as $15.14. The report "The Real Price of Gas" identifies and quantifies the many external costs of using gas that consumers pay indirectly by way of taxes, insurance costs and retail prices in other sectors. Established in 1994, the International Center for Technology Assessment (CTA), is a Washington-based research organization that analyzes how technology affects society.

The CTA study examines more than 40 separate cost factors associated with gasoline production and consumption. These include subsidies for the petroleum industry such as the percentage depletion allowance; tax-funded programs that directly subsidize oil production and consumption, like government-sponsored R&D for the oil industry; the costs of protecting oil supplies, shipments and motor vehicle usage, including military expenditures for protecting the Middle East and other oil rich regions; and environmental, health and social costs including those for global warming. Together these subsidies for gas paid by consumers total up to $1.68 trillion per year.

The Report will be released at a news conference today, Tuesday, November 17, 1998, at 10 a.m. The conference will be held at the offices of the Communications Consortium at 1200 New York Avenue, N.W. (AAAS Building, 1 block from Metro Center), Second Floor, Revelle Conference Room. Scheduled panelists include Andrew Kimbrell, and Joseph Mendelson of CTA, Ann Mesnikoff of the Sierra Club and Gawain Kripke of Friends of the Earth.

According to CTA Director Andrew Kimbrell, "The real price of gas has been hidden from the consumer for far too long. Some of these costs including those associated with military actions in the Middle East and global warming could skyrocket in the coming years. Once the public understands how much they are really paying for gas we should see a tremendous increase in political pressure for alternatives."

Joseph Mendelson III, CTA legal director commented, "This Report has major policy implications. For example, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) is currently drafting standards for the next generation of automobiles through the "Tier II" process. This Report indicates that the EPA should encourage a significant move away from gas-powered vehicles."

###

[Bas]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('miraculix', 'a') third component to the equation are the average miles driven.

Due to the denser structure of EU metropolitan areas, people in Europe are driving at lot less than people in the US. Hence, the overall economic impact of rising gasoline cost is cushioned further.

[ProfitOfDoom]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Peepers', '
')Highways - $35 billion (funded heavily by gas taxes)

[Tyler_JC]

http://www.sierraclub.org/sprawl/articles/subsidies.asp

Now obviously the Sierra Club is not an unbiased source, so I'll stick with their low estimates.

They claim that America's drivers are subsidized to the tune of $400-$500 billion dollars.

This includes costs associated with:

"1. Police, fire, ambulance; road construction & maintenance; other local government - paid for with taxes.
2. Property taxes lost from land cleared for freeways
3. Parking - free or cheaper parking is paid for with other taxes, or more expensive goods or services.
4. Air, water, land pollution - adds to medical expenses, loss of species and cleanup costs.
5. Noise, vibration damage to structures - adds to medical expenses and repair costs.
6. Global warming - adds to medical expenses, loss of species and other costs.
7. Petroleum supply line policing, security, petroleum production subsidies - increases taxes for defense.
8. Trade deficit, infrastructure deficit - increases costs of goods.
9. Sprawl, loss of transportation options - increases personal and corporate transportation costs.
10. Uncompensated auto accidents - increases personal costs.
11. Congestion- increases personal costs and losses."

Regardless of what the actual figure is, American drivers are clearly being subsidized.

The "real" cost of fuel should be much higher in order to compensate for the additional expenses associated with maintaining the road network and its externalities.

[Twilight]

A lot of that is politically contentious, but the military component is undeniable. Militaries exist to maintain the security of borders, trade routes and access to resources. All military spending is therefore an overt subsidy of resource exploitation in general. The transportation and defence segments of a government budget pie chart might as well be mentally merged.

[Euric]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')
I often hear Europeans on this forum claim that higher gasoline prices do not effect them because they are already paying $4, $5, or even $6 per gallon.

[Peepers]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ProfitOfDoom', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Peepers', '
')Highways - $35 billion (funded heavily by gas taxes)

[miraculix]

@Euric

wtf captain obviuos?!?!

+/-1.15 €/l = US$ 6 /gal

anybody here should be able to do this in their head

[Euric]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('miraculix', '@')Euric

wtf captain obviuos?!?!

+/-1.15 €/l = US$ 6 /gal

anybody here should be able to do this in their head

[miraculix]

oh brother
you must be one of those what they refer to as Besser Wessis in East Germany
There are upward to 500 million people that still use the imperial system and the mayority of the persons posting here are quite comfortable with it
we talk about oil in terms of barrels for instance. Do you imply we change that to hecto litre as well?

anyway, this all but a waste of time smarty pants

lets focus on the real issues at hand shall we?

[Peepers]

Here's a question -- at what level would gasoline taxes begin to affect consumption. I've heard some argue here that gas taxes won't affect consumption. I disagree with that. Europe and Japan instituted higher gas taxes several decades ago to reduce demand and pay for a variety of programs. It worked. Each uses far less oil per capita than the low-tax USA. Are the demand/price curves the same for Americans as they are for others?

[Gerben]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Peepers', 'H')ere's a question -- at what level would gasoline taxes begin to affect consumption. I've heard some argue here that gas taxes won't affect consumption. I disagree with that. Europe and Japan instituted higher gas taxes several decades ago to reduce demand and pay for a variety of programs. It worked. Each uses far less oil per capita than the low-tax USA. Are the demand/price curves the same for Americans as they are for others?

[Tyler_JC]

One must also consider that European communities are less big-car friendly. Years of very high fuel prices have prevented the construction of the kinds of suburbs that are all too common in the United States.

Very few people in my area could walk to the grocery store if they had to. There is no bus, no subway, and no sidewalks. Basically, if gasoline were suddenly unavailable, we'd be "stuck up a cul-de-sac in a cement SUV." I would be willing to bet that most of my fellow Americans are in the same situation. We just don't have the physical set up for an expensive oil world.

On the other hand, America's inefficiency is also an opportunity. America uses 1 kilogram of oil equivalent to produce $4.2 of GDP. Denmark uses that same 1 kilogram of oil to produce $7.9 of GDP.

Even if American only manages to close that gap by 50%, we could dramatically scale back oil consumption and still maintain something close to our current standard of living.

I think that the following link provides another one of the most overlooked parts of Peak Oil. The efficiency in which a nation converts energy into GDP will have a major impact on that nation's ability to survive an energy crunch.

http://hdr.undp.org/reports/global/2003/indicator/indic_312.html

That chart tells me that Jamaica, which only manages to produce $2.4 per kilogram of oil, is in serious trouble. Now if you think about Jamaica's economy which is almost entirely tourism based...it starts to make sense. Any country that relies on a regular influx of rich westerners by Boeing 737s to function is a couple of years away from a major depression.

[cube]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Permanently_Baffled', '.')..
The plan is to put a little black box in every car which clocks your miles, the roads you have been on and at what time.

...

[miraculix]

we already have those darn "black boxes" in the US.

they just need to be turned on...