[gg3]

From BBC Internet:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/f ... 105229.stm

A BBC correspondent was asking a pastor in Pennsylvania about the relationship between religion and politics in America.

"You want an answer to that, come to my breakfast meeting tomorrow morning," said Pastor Johnson.

At the breakfast meeting:

"The president has been sovereignly decided by God to lead this country," said Matt Roberts, a head teacher.

Take a close look at the above quote:

"The President": the elected head of the Executive branch of our government.

"sovereignly decided" The first definition of "sovereign" in dictionary.com is: "One that exercises supreme, permanent authority, especially in a nation or other governmental unit, as: A king, queen, or other noble person who serves as chief of state; a ruler or monarch." Therefore this phrase means, "decided by one that exercises supreme, permanent authority...(such as) a king, queen.. a ruler or monarch."

"by God" This phrase specifies who is the sovereign: God.

"to lead this country." This phrase specifies the sovereign's purpose.

Therefore, what this quote means, quite literally, is "The President of the United States has been chosen by the supreme and permanent authority of God, to lead this nation."

What we have there, folks, is the assertion that the President rules by divine right. And that is the paradigm definition of a king.

So we look up "divine right of kings" on wikipedia.org, and get the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Right_of_Kings

"The Divine Right of Kings is a European political and religious doctrine of political absolutism. Such doctrines are largely, though not exclusively, associated with the mediæval and ancien régime eras, based on contemporary Christian belief that a monarch owed his rule to the will of God, not to the will of his subjects, parliament, the aristocracy or any other competing authority. This doctrine continued with the claim that any attempt to depose a monarch or to restrict his powers ran contrary to the will of God."

(Note: the word "contemporary" refers to, contemporary with the "medieval and ancien regime eras," not the present era.)

Note: "doctrine of political absolutism..." and "the monarcy owed his rule to the will of God, not to the will of his subjects..."

Note particularly the last sentence: "...any attempt to depose a monarch or to restrict his powers ran contrary to the will of God." For emphasis: "or restrict his powers."

Now to be quite clear, I have no problem with constitutional monarchies and royal families in Europe and the UK. These institutions have a long and established history in their respective countries, and have evolved to their present point where they exist primarily as representatives of national culture and tradition. They have a kind of cultural authority that is distinct from the political authority of running day-to-day governance, which in turn is in the hands of parliamentary institutions.

However, the entire concept of monarchy in the United States, is entirely absent from, and alien to, our own traditions. It was the primary issue in our own war of independence over two and a quarter centuries ago.

The very first line in our Constitution reads, "We the People of the United States...do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." We the People. Not God, not a divinely ordained sovereign ruler.

And as President Abraham Lincoln, Republican, said in the Gettysburg Address, "government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth." Government by the people. Not by God, not by a divinely ordained soveriegn ruler.

Folks, I have seen elsewhere, many quotes such as the one cited in the BBC. This is becoming a common thread in the politics of the religious right. Bush was chosen by God; or, God guided the electorate to choose Bush (a slightly different version of the same idea: God acting through the indirect agency of the voters).

This is more radical, more alien to our own national traditions, and more dangerous, than even communism was in the darkest days of the Stalin era. At no time in our history did communism appeal to more than a small percentage of the population. At no time did communists claim to have decided a Presidential election. At no time did communists claim that a United States President governed by virtue of communist principles. Yet today, religious extremists constitute a sizeable plurality, and make exactly these claims: that they decide elections, and that the President governs by virtue of divine ordination.

The idea that a President of the United States is somehow divinely ordained, leads directly to the idea that challenging his power runs contrary to the will of God. That leads us not only toward monarchy, but beyond, into theocracy and absolutism.

There has never been such an enormous danger to the principles of liberty, equality, pluralism, and democracy, upon which this republic was founded.

[TrueKaiser]

good post but you are a few years to late. we started to be a theoracy about the year 2000.

[gg3]

Started. Does that mean we should sit on our bottoms and twiddle our thumbs while it goes the rest of the way?

This talk about the divine right of president-kings, is new stuff. As of the latest election.

[big_rc]

No my friend, it is not a new phenomenon. You just live in a blue state that actually tries to separate religion and state. Come on down to the Deep South where I live to get a full dose of this thinking. In actuality, this whole divine right of presidents started in earnest with Regan's whole "city on the hill" bullshit (which is torn straight out of the Bible for your info) and the ascendancy of the "Moral Majority". The Republican's have brillantly coopted the religious high ground and have masterfully equated Democrats with godlessness. (Bill Clinton's flings didn't help one bit.) I do agree with you though that this thinking is dangerous and is on the rise.

[Such]

You can't eat your Bible.

wel... maybe the leather bound ones...

[CarlinsDarlin]

rc,
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you - this has been coming for a long time, and there are many who will not even tolerate any discussion of opposing views where I live (also in the south). It's a scary time... brainwashed sheeples....
Kathy

[Kingcoal]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('big_rc', 'N')o my friend, it is not a new phenomenon. You just live in a blue state that actually tries to separate religion and state. Come on down to the Deep South where I live to get a full dose of this thinking. In actuality, this whole divine right of presidents started in earnest with Regan's whole "city on the hill" bullshit (which is torn straight out of the Bible for your info) and the ascendancy of the "Moral Majority". The Republican's have brillantly coopted the religious high ground and have masterfully equated Democrats with godlessness. (Bill Clinton's flings didn't help one bit.) I do agree with you though that this thinking is dangerous and is on the rise.

[TrueKaiser]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'S')tarted. Does that mean we should sit on our bottoms and twiddle our thumbs while it goes the rest of the way?

This talk about the divine right of president-kings, is new stuff. As of the latest election.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TrueKaiser', '.')..there is a differnce between not doing anything and not being able to do anything.

[TrueKaiser]

i am not chicken i just relize when to cut my losses.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TrueKaiser', 'i') am not chicken...

[TWilliam]

On the otherhand, as someone once said, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem."

And I admit it... I'm not yet ready to give up my hot meals and (mostly) comfortable bed either. I suppose like most I'll only get off my ass once I no longer have a place to put it...

[KiddieKorral]

Brilliant! Where did you get that from?

[jesus_of_suburbia_old]

Did you know that the Great Flood carved out the Grand Canyon?

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/gr-canyn.html

[CarlinsDarlin]

You know, every time I hear (or in this case, read) someone saying "God told me..." I remember that even prophets were not spoken to directly by God... God spoke to Moses through the burning bush according to the bible. According to the Qur'an, the angel Gabriel is the messenger Angel who delivers God's word to prophets... God doesn't speak directly to prophets, yet Dubya thinks God speaks directly to him??? Wow. Scary times indeed.
K

[TWilliam]

"The National Government will regard it as its first and foremost duty to revive in the nation the spirit of unity and cooperation. It will preserve and defend those basic principles on which our nation has been built. It regards Christianity as the foundation of our national morality, and the family as the basis of national life." --Adolph Hitler, My New World Order, Proclamation to the German Nation at Berlin, February 1, 1933

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kochevnik', 'O')f course, along the way they will take a lot of other people along with them but I'm not convinced this is a bad thing.

[TrueKaiser]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jrob8503', 'D')id you know that the Great Flood carved out the Grand Canyon?

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/gr-canyn.html

[gg3]

Kochevnik, thanks.

TrueKaiser, re. cutting one's losses: "First they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew..."

(Actually, Niemoller got his history wrong: first they came for the disabled and the homosexuals -sound familar?- then they came for the Gypsies, and *then* they came for the Jews, followed by the Poles, the Slavs, and so on.)

Re. the South, and re. flat-earth geologists who can't count above 6,000: This is the real product of the decline of our educational system. Not only the obvious increase in basic illiteracy and innumeracy, and not only the scientific illiteracy of the flat-earthers, but also the historical illiteracy of people who don't even know what the main issue was in 1776!

(No offense to our friends in the UK here, nor to the present constitutional monarchy in the UK, as I made clear in my initial posting. However we as Americans have got to stand by our own history, and our own traditions, just as any other people in any other nation stand by theirs.)

As for what to do about it: anything that spreads basic literacy and numeracy, and scientific and historical literacy. That includes supporting public schools and private schools with real academic standards, creating and promoting home-schooling curriculum materials that support these goals, vigorously criticizing poor standards wherever they occur, opposing the flat-earthers when they run for school board, voting in your local elections as well as the state and national ones, keeping up a constant barrage of letters to the press, to your elected officials, and to local corporate leaders, emphasizing the importance of literacy in these areas.

I have got to believe that education is prevention, in the same sense as pasteurization of milk is prevention.

[TWilliam]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'I') have got to believe that education is prevention, in the same sense as pasteurization of milk is prevention.