[Baldwin]

Has anyone considered how Cheap Oil has made virtually all material aspects of society suited for disposability? Compare something made at the turn of the (19th-20th) century with something made today. Let's assume it is a chair found at a desk or in a study.

The chair from 1900 was probably made out of a hardwood (mahogany, ebony) or perhaps instead a more common, but nonetheless solid wood like oak. Think of the office chair of 2007. I am looking at one right now. It is mostly plastic, with a metal rod for support. the seat and back have that artificial plastic leather. The chair from 1900 is still in my living room (well, 1890 really). It needs some slight repair to the upholstery. The chair at my computer desk probably won't make it to next year. It is probably 2-3 yrs old.

Let's look at housing. My grandparent's house came from the Victorian era (1905). THe walls are of a dual layer of wood with plaster poured inbetween. After 100 years, you need a jackhammer to get through it. The roof has sheets of copper underneath. The roof has never leaked. The front doors are 2 inches thick. You'd need a batter ram to get in. The outer walls have cedar shingles, which remarkably stand the test of time. In the basement, various pillars...trunks of cedar...hold the house up.

Let's look at today's houses. They look like they are made of plywood, wrapped in that plastic insulation. Then large square boards of wood are fitted over the the outside. Over that, a facade of bricks or tacky siding is put on. How about roofs? Often, the shingles are placed over a layer of FELT to catch the rain. There is a reason the copper roof of my grandfather hasn't leaked in 102 years while my own roof leaks after 10. Even the thatched cottages of Ireland only need thatch once every 50-75 years.

I could go on and on, with examples (I could have an orgy with computer parts....with the need to replace graphics cards and whatnot every 6 months). Cheap oil has generated a civilization that doesn't need "built to last". It just needs "built to last long enough till the next shipment comes in". If it was difficult to ship materials, assemble craftsmen and laborers etc, we'd build to last.

Even the Romans, with slaves, ships, and denarii innumerable, built the Colosseum to last.

I am sure all of you can look around and find items that you buy, use for a short while, and then dispose of.

[Heineken]

The impact we have had on this world will last far longer than anything the Romans dreamed of, or achieved.

We've changed the face of the Earth, as seen from the Moon. Caused mass extinction. Poisoned rivers and oceans. Eroded trillions of tons of topsoil. Paved over millions of acres. Altered the very climate.

The impacts of some of these changes will linger for millions of years, even if we vanished tomorrow.

We've had quite an impact with our duct tape and plastic.

Yes, our houses are flimsy, but there are a hell of a lot of 'em.

[Baldwin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Heineken', 'T')he impact we have had on this world will last far longer than anything the Romans dreamed of, or achieved.

We've changed the face of the Earth, as seen from the Moon. Caused mass extinction. Poisoned rivers and oceans. Eroded trillions of tons of topsoil. Paved over millions of acres. Altered the very climate.

The impacts of some of these changes will linger for millions of years, even if we vanished tomorrow.

We've had quite an impact with our duct tape and plastic.

Yes, our houses are flimsy, but there are a hell of a lot of 'em.

[frankthetank]

Plywood? try OSB. All osb. Only plywood i've seen on a building is a big complex (offices?) in town is using plywood, but i think OSB outsells plywood now. Tools are another area that have gone waay downhill. If you want you can buy tools cheap, but don't expect them to last. Its one area i won't skimp. Vinyl siding? Probably be burning that stuff in powerplants in 20 years. One thing they have got right lately is insulation. My house is from the 60's and i've got clapboard siding with some black tar paper with about 1/2 of ugly looking yellow insulation glued to it. Thats it. I'd love to insulate better, but my siding is newer (big hassle). Quality of food today is shit. All people are really eating today is corn, be it liquid (pop) or solid (meat). Notebook computers (the cheap ones) are junk (IMO). I've got 4 of them since early 2000 and 3 are dead (like dead dead, not hard drive dead). I love old stuff that still works, it just shows you that quality craftmanship, quality materials can make a long lasting product.

[Baldwin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('frankthetank', 'P')lywood? try OSB. All osb. Only plywood i've seen on a building is a big complex (offices?) in town is using plywood, but i think OSB outsells plywood now. Tools are another area that have gone waay downhill. If you want you can buy tools cheap, but don't expect them to last. Its one area i won't skimp. Vinyl siding? Probably be burning that stuff in powerplants in 20 years. One thing they have got right lately is insulation. My house is from the 60's and i've got clapboard siding with some black tar paper with about 1/2 of ugly looking yellow insulation glued to it. Thats it. I'd love to insulate better, but my siding is newer (big hassle). Quality of food today is shit. All people are really eating today is corn, be it liquid (pop) or solid (meat). Notebook computers (the cheap ones) are junk (IMO). I've got 4 of them since early 2000 and 3 are dead (like dead dead, not hard drive dead). I love old stuff that still works, it just shows you that quality craftmanship, quality materials can make a long lasting product.

[max_power29]

Ever since becoming "aware", I tend to look for more quality goods even if I cant find them. I think how long can I make this pair of boots last?, is this chinese t-shirt thick enough or will i be able to see through it after washing it for a month?, Will this firearm be reliable for a lifetime?, what about this knife or tool?

I broke a cheap ratchet just the other day. I should have known to not try to get lug nuts off with it.

I dont have many quality tools.

I wish I had copper sheets under my shingles. My roof/ house would last forever.

You can buy enitrely steel houses today realtively inexpensive. I wish i had one. fireproof, termiteproof, bullet proof. They are awesome

I really worry about my house getting burnt down by the zombies when TSHTF. all of my supplies to outllast the all the fools are in here

[MacG]

There is a trap in this thinking. Darwin have had his say on "stuff" too. The old stuff you see around is only the really good stuff. The crap from 1873 has vanished and only the quality stuff survived until now.

[max_power29]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MacG', 'T')here is a trap in this thinking. Darwin have had his say on "stuff" too. The old stuff you see around is only the really good stuff. The crap from 1873 has vanished and only the quality stuff survived until now.

[americandream]

There was a culture of recycling back then which was testimony enough I reckon, to the resilience of what was made and remade....over and over.

What can you recycle these days....bugger all apart from milk bottles, paper and card board. Having said that, if somethings remotely capable of being taken apart, I'll have a go at making it last. Incidentally, I've a mega network of cannibalised Mac's and 98's and they work just fine.

[Loki]

Good observations Baldwin. I've thought about this quite a bit myself. I'm not sure when things started going downhill. I live in an apartment building that I think was probably built in the 1940s (there's an inspection sticker in my fuse box dated 1946). It's cheap crap. They were throwing a lot of quick housing up to deal with the population influx in my city at that time.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', 'E')ver since becoming "aware", I tend to look for more quality goods even if I cant find them.

[bshirt]

Excellent thread.

What totally smoked my mind was last summer seeing new houses constructed using big particle boards for the floor joists.

wow!!

Any water getting to those joists and the whole bloody house will collapse.

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MacG', 'T')here is a trap in this thinking. Darwin have had his say on "stuff" too. The old stuff you see around is only the really good stuff. The crap from 1873 has vanished and only the quality stuff survived until now.

[basil_hayden]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ohanian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MacG', 'T')here is a trap in this thinking. Darwin have had his say on "stuff" too. The old stuff you see around is only the really good stuff. The crap from 1873 has vanished and only the quality stuff survived until now.

[Baldwin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MacG', 'T')here is a trap in this thinking. Darwin have had his say on "stuff" too. The old stuff you see around is only the really good stuff. The crap from 1873 has vanished and only the quality stuff survived until now.

[emersonbiggins]

Lamenting the duct tape and plastic society?

Why, the middle class demanded it!

[perdition79]

Good rant. Consumer goods today, for the most part, aren't made to last. When you're shopping for something in particular, try to look for the best; don't buy a cheap plastic flashlight for $4, spend $10 and buy a maglite. The $60 you spend on a new coffee machine could buy five or six used percolators, each of which will last decades. In the long run, only the good stuff will survive, it's our job to look for quality.

[jdmartin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MacG', 'T')here is a trap in this thinking. Darwin have had his say on "stuff" too. The old stuff you see around is only the really good stuff. The crap from 1873 has vanished and only the quality stuff survived until now.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bshirt', ' ')
What totally smoked my mind was last summer seeing new houses constructed using big particle boards for the floor joists. Any water getting to those joists and the whole bloody house will collapse.

[Baldwin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bshirt', ' ')
What totally smoked my mind was last summer seeing new houses constructed using big particle boards for the floor joists. Any water getting to those joists and the whole bloody house will collapse.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Baldwin', ' ')I was also implying that perhaps if consumer goods cannot be replaced as cheaply or quickly due to skyrocketing energy prices and energy shortage, we might see a call for sturdier consumer goods.