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peakoil is not a problem

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.
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Re: peakoil is not a problem

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 21 Feb 2007, 01:20:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Concerned', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ReserveGrowthRulz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('bonjaski', '
')so peakoil is not a problem.

for one interested in economics and science its an interesting event ...


Another exceptional individual. Feel free to hang around, and we'll try and convert these heathens together.

What is obvious to us apparently takes a WEE bit of effort for the less talented. But we shall persevere! If only because we're 18 months post peak ( according to THEIR prophets ) and guess what? Nobody much has noticed.....not even them.


Well I don't know about phrophets but the stuff I've been reading says 2010-12.

Stay tuned.


It's a strawman he likes to trot out.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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Re: peakoil is not a problem

Unread postby Auntie_Cipation » Wed 21 Feb 2007, 01:57:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'I') agree with the original poster. We can have a decent life with half the fossil fuels. We've done it in our household.


Sure, conservation seems ideal at the individual level, but if everybody did it, we would conserve our way right out of our jobs.

Wasted, or poorly used, energy does not go down some rathole, it employs millions, it drives GDP growth.


Absolutely right. The situation with oil is only a trigger, for most people the problem is not their personal use of oil but how oil is an underpinning of the infrastructure and the economy. Pull the oil thread (or the bird flu thread, or any of them) and it all unravels.

I can't remember for sure but I think it was Matt Savinar who said that the way to best stand up to this system was not to merely limit your consumption, but also to limit your production, in the sense of your participation in the economy. If you NEED your income, you're as vulnerable as if you NEED your oil. If you can learn to live on very little money, you're at least somewhat buffered. Plus, by not "producing" much, in the economic sense, you're not participating in fostering the dependences of others.
"... among the ways available in which a man can die, it is a rare and signal distinction to be killed by a leopard."

-- Raymond Dasmann
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Re: peakoil is not a problem

Unread postby snax » Wed 21 Feb 2007, 02:08:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', 'Y')eah! Government subsidies sure are good at making bioscams "efficient".

*sarcasm*Those start-ups sure are independent!*sarcasm*

Let the inflation and starvation begin!

That's a convenient omission of fact that oil companies are getting huge tax breaks already despite record profits. Subsidies for biofuels are simply a leveling of the playing field.
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Re: peakoil is not a problem

Unread postby max_power29 » Wed 21 Feb 2007, 04:54:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('snax', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', 'Y')eah! Government subsidies sure are good at making bioscams "efficient".

*sarcasm*Those start-ups sure are independent!*sarcasm*

Let the inflation and starvation begin!

That's a convenient omission of fact that oil companies are getting huge tax breaks already despite record profits. Subsidies for biofuels are simply a leveling of the playing field.


So they subsidize both, what is the point? What are we supposed to eat: crude oil instead of food?

I would rather the world had neither taxes nor subsidies at all.

How does bioscam harness MORE energy than just burning the oil in the first place instead of burning it to grow food to burn?
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Re: peakoil is not a problem

Unread postby Ludi » Wed 21 Feb 2007, 20:33:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Auntie_Cipation', 'I') can't remember for sure but I think it was Matt Savinar who said that the way to best stand up to this system was not to merely limit your consumption, but also to limit your production, in the sense of your participation in the economy. If you NEED your income, you're as vulnerable as if you NEED your oil. If you can learn to live on very little money, you're at least somewhat buffered. Plus, by not "producing" much, in the economic sense, you're not participating in fostering the dependences of others.


I only know of a few people who are in that situation, and none of them personally. I don't know of anyone personally who has a smaller income than I do, and I am quite concerned about losing my income.


Who doesn't need their income?
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Re: peakoil is not a problem

Unread postby MattSavinar » Thu 22 Feb 2007, 00:11:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Auntie_Cipation', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'I') agree with the original poster. We can have a decent life with half the fossil fuels. We've done it in our household.


Sure, conservation seems ideal at the individual level, but if everybody did it, we would conserve our way right out of our jobs.

Wasted, or poorly used, energy does not go down some rathole, it employs millions, it drives GDP growth.


Absolutely right. The situation with oil is only a trigger, for most people the problem is not their personal use of oil but how oil is an underpinning of the infrastructure and the economy. Pull the oil thread (or the bird flu thread, or any of them) and it all unravels.

I can't remember for sure but I think it was Matt Savinar who said that the way to best stand up to this system was not to merely limit your consumption, but also to limit your production, in the sense of your participation in the economy. If you NEED your income, you're as vulnerable as if you NEED your oil. If you can learn to live on very little money, you're at least somewhat buffered. Plus, by not "producing" much, in the economic sense, you're not participating in fostering the dependences of others.


I did say that but I'm not encouraging people to actually limit their incomes. As the prices of essential commodities rise, they will be distributed on the basis of the ability to pay. So if you want an electric bike, some solar panels, nice farmland with access to potable water, whatever, you're going to need to be able to compete with others in terms of being able to bid for it.
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Re: peakoil is not a problem

Unread postby Auntie_Cipation » Thu 22 Feb 2007, 00:36:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MattSavinar', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Auntie_Cipation', 'I') can't remember for sure but I think it was Matt Savinar who said that the way to best stand up to this system was not to merely limit your consumption, but also to limit your production, in the sense of your participation in the economy. If you NEED your income, you're as vulnerable as if you NEED your oil. If you can learn to live on very little money, you're at least somewhat buffered. Plus, by not "producing" much, in the economic sense, you're not participating in fostering the dependences of others.


I did say that but I'm not encouraging people to actually limit their incomes. As the prices of essential commodities rise, they will be distributed on the basis of the ability to pay. So if you want an electric bike, some solar panels, nice farmland with access to potable water, whatever, you're going to need to be able to compete with others in terms of being able to bid for it.


Thanks for the clarification. I still maintain that the idea of limiting one's input into the system, instead of 'merely' one's consumption from it, is very powerful.

I quit a $60k/year job in 2004 and now work very part-time for $10/hour. I earn about $500/month, which happens to be enough to pay my bills, as I'm fortunate to not have housing costs. No, I'm not deprived -- I have access to savings for purchasing needs re planning for the future. And I agree with you that if one wants land or manufactured stuff as part of their preparation, that will take money and they should indeed attempt to get what they need/want.

But, special purchases aside, my goal is to live within this income as much as possible. Part of why I'm motivated to do this is to show that it can be done, that people can live comfortably in the US without much income. Another strong motivation for me is the desire to earn less income than the federal filing requirements for income tax (about 8k for one person). I have no objection to income tax in general, but as long as it's essentially a war tax, I'll sit out, thanks. And as I suggested, another strong motivation is the idea that I'm trying to keep my footprint low on both the consumption end and the production end. That has a strong appeal. It makes barter appealing in a whole new way, too.
"... among the ways available in which a man can die, it is a rare and signal distinction to be killed by a leopard."

-- Raymond Dasmann
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Re: peakoil is not a problem

Unread postby Revi » Thu 22 Feb 2007, 11:02:36

The only way we can stay afloat is to cut our fossil fuel needs. The price of the stuff goes up and cuts into the bottom line. We are spending some money now to save later. We bought a more efficient washer for example. It'll use less electricity in the future, when our income drops, or the price of electricity goes up. Now is the time to invest in infrastructure that saves money and energy later.

The town I live in put in new windows and insulated the town office. They said that the next few years there were huge savings in energy use. It cost some money to do the insulating, but it's paying off now big time. Us taxpayers consider that money well spent. Everybody's much more comfortable in the building now that there aren't huge drafts coming through. Jevons might not like it, but I do.

I guess I'm not as concerned about losing jobs through conservation and efficiency. Most of the money we spend for gas and oil goes towards making artificial ski areas in Dubai and destabilizing Iraq. (on both sides) Anything we spend here at home insulating, etc. goes through at least 10 hands before it rattles out of the area.
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Re: peakoil is not a problem

Unread postby ACrisisAwaits » Tue 10 Apr 2007, 20:11:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('max_power29', '
')How does bioscam harness MORE energy than just burning the oil in the first place instead of burning it to grow food to burn?


The extra energy is supposed to come from the sun, through the process of photosynthesis.
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