[edpeak]

MrBill, that's why I ask AR activists and vegans etc, to always ask themselves: you doing this because your careful analysis suggests it really is the most effective way to communicate and educate (sorry, that's not a 4letter word, any more than educating people about obesity, high salt diets, and condoms is also not a bad thing), or are you just trying to vent? I think that's true for us peakoilers and us concerned about GW, and us concerns about plant based diets and anyone else...not to attack the group who feels strongly, but to ask members of that group to ask themselves, "will this be tactically useful, or will it turn out to be closer to just a 'vent' but counterproductive or only marginally useful?"

Of course some will take offence no matter what you say, no matter how gently, as we all know :-) but still it's a good question to ask oneself, not just vegans/AR but also PO folks and others, a good question to ask ourselves. Including curbing doomer-rhetoric or some WHK rhetoric...

As for why people feel a need to discuss with others what they care about, I think the question answers itself, no? Or else, some folks above answered that in the case of plant based diet by listing three main motivators...I added a fourth one...

You are doing what you can, MrBill, and that's good.

Would I enjoy having lunch with you if you order an extra-rare veal? Um, probably not...Do I need to scream at you (or anyone) that the world will end all-cause-of-you? Of course not. But there's a wide area between those two points, and each person, and in each circumstance, the place one takes in that spectrum changes..same with peak oil...do we need to scream at every one who drives? Most of us, no. Do we feel a *little* bit unsure about giving a compliment when someone we know says they just got a hummer and asks us, "isn't that great?" and asks for our answer? again a wide spectrum between those to points, and it's not always easy to know where in the wide area between them to "be" when talking to folks in person or online..I guess I just try to do the best I can, I guess we all do, trying to make that judgement call depending on circumstances..
EDpeak

[edpeak]

One more thought...another parallel..I remind myself and remind others eating a plant based diet, they you too used to eat meat.. so avoid judging someone as 'evil' since you were not inherently evil inside your heart, back then, either..and the same in parallel with peak oil..and global climate disruption.. we need to remember we too (even those of us who found out about it pretty early) at some point in time didn't know about those things..so don't assume people are evil etc...there are folks who DO seem to deny it despite knowing better, but that's rare..in most cases they are trying to grapple with a very busy life and job schedule and to juggle competing things they have heard etc...

[MrBill]

I have reduced my global footprint to the point that I barely cast a shadow anymore! ; - )

However, it would be naive to think everyone could replicate my lifestyle changes. For one thing climate. I happen to live in a place that requires next to no heating or air conditioning at home most of the time. And our hot water comes from solar.

But anyone that has to work in an office building here needs air conditioning in the summer. Also, living on an island requires a certain amount of international air travel to do my job. That is a fact I cannot escape. And as the waters around the eastern Mediterranean are for all intents and purposes fished out if I want to eat fresh fish that fish has to come from somewhere else in refrigerated containers.

So even though we try to eat a lot of fresh fruit and vegetables grown locally to think we are not making an imprint on the environment is wrong. We clearly do. Not to mention my family in Canada could not survive the winter without heating, so again, it would be naive to think they could replicate my lifestyle changes here.

[hi-fiver]

Mr. Bill:
Cyrpess and Cyprus - Ok, I got it.
Living in Alaska, I try to live on as much of a fish (salmon) diet as I can. No matter what kind of healthy diet a person might try to implement in their life , sooner or later some "Study" comes out proving your diet was detrimental to your live style. I don't care about wood smoke...It makes my dry (cold smoke) salmon taste great, and it will stay fresh all winter if you keep it in a "cellar.
I work on the North Slope, and during my time "on Tower" you eat what ever is provided - I have found most "ruff Necks" are strickley "meat&potatoes" type guys. Consequently, you might find me hanging out at the "Salad Bar",being that that is the only kind of Bar you will find on the entire north slope. I am currently suffering from malnutrition , but it is nothing that a couple of weeks in Kenai Peninsula sunshine couldn't cure.

[MrBill]

hi-fiver it is always hard to make generalizations. the actions of a few may not cause any harm, but if adopted by the many they can have severe consequences.

whereas duck populations in Canada have been dropping due to draining of small sloughs for agricultural land the population of geese is actually higher than at anytime in history.

ditto for deer populations. we used to see hardly any game near our farm, now we not only see white tails, but, unheard of, lots of mule deer as well. last time I was home I counted 13 in one field alone.

so if anyone wants to harvest a few geese or deer and freeze the meat or smoke it for their own use I cannot see that impacting either the environment or making a dent in their over population. however, naturally if everyone went out and harvested deer and geese they would quickly disappear.

total allowable cut determines how many trees can be harvested from any given area at a time without leading to the forest's overall decline. the same for harvesting wild game.

I certainly do not have a moral problem with harvesting wild game to eat, although I have given up shooting anything except clay pidgeons for sport.

some tasty Alaskan salmon would be nice! ; - )

[hi-fiver]

Mr. Bill:
Yes those Clay Pidgons are tasty. I just bought a new FN auto loader that I can't wait to try out...Clay pidgons that is. I gave up shooting live targets after VietNam- But I still love guns and I find Skeet shooting totaly satisfying.
In the Twenty -three years I have worked on the North Slope of Alaska, I have seen different Pipeline configurations to mitigate the interuption of seasonal migration of the local Caribou populations. In fact, before I moved to Alaska in 1975, I had worked for an Ecological consulting firm out of Ft.Collins Colorado - Anyway, I was sensitive to the inviro issues in Alaska and sorta found myself at odds with working with oil field companys. I solved the "inner conversataions" by a combination of excellent pay at work, and a true belief that the Oil Companys were manageing their North Slope assets with the highest ecological standards available... The Company (ARCO back then) even built Caribou crossings for their cross-country pipelines that averaged 8' off the ground. These "caribou crossings" were about a hundred thousand dollars worth of gravel , every five miles , that was bridged over the "pipe rack" that was already 8 feet off the ground. In the twenty-three years I have worked on the North Slope, I have only once seen a caribou standing on a gravel caribou crossing- The eight feet nominal pipe-rack height was obviously comfortable enough for the migrating caribou-reguardless of the enviromental studies. Anayway, I will try to be a vegitarian within the next two years - if we can keep the polar bears away...

[PhebaAndThePilgrim]

Good day from Pheba, from the farm: Well, I voted to remain a savage. We raise beef cattle. But, my own beef cattle is the only meat source I will consume. I can't stomach store bought beef or chicken, and I am allergic to pork.
I am not going to go into a full explanation of what is happening in the beef industry on this post. I will put up a new subject concerning beef, grass, and ethanol. I have some interesting information to post.
Pheba.

[Ludi]

Nope, I'm staying an omnivore.

[edpeak]

Your point is a good one MrBill about the need for A/C and
heating..a LOT of one or the other or both, in some areas..

I've long felt due to this that populations will therefore
move, over the coming decades...

I think Kuntsler already talks about Nevada..I'm
talking about lots of places...

Does this mean forced relocation? No, and I don't
think it should, but slowly over the coming decades
with GW to some extent, and even more so due to PO,
PeakNG etc, the dozen variables people balance in their
minds when they decide where to settle down, will include
one variable's weight getting bigger..and fewer people
will choose to live (or stay) in places that require a huge amount
of A/C or a huge amount of winter heating..some people
surely will...lots even...but fewer than previously.

Simlarly with peak oil and NG and effects on agriculture,
alongside collapsing wildlife, will mean that more
move to a plant-based diet due to the higher
calories per acre and higher grams or protein per acre
versus meat eating...individuals will do what they
want and on small scales as you say there's little
impact..and there won't be any forced
diet any more than forced relocation (at least,
not with my support there won't force feed people
a diet they don't want) but like with where
people choose to live, over time, over years
and decades, the shfit will happen...not
only more vegans and vegetarians, but more
omnivores who, nevertheless, make meat
a smaller part of their diet..

Neither is a provable prediction, but both
make sense to me as general trends given
the sea change in background conditions,
costs, resources, etc...

EDpeak

[eastbay]

I've been a vegetarian for about two years now. No more killing for food.

We have two choices. Vegetarian or stone-cold killer.

If I was president America would becoma vegetarian in two weeks. All non-vegetarians would be shot. I would give animal eaters one week to repent and cease the pointless killing. Then I would have those who insist on eating meat shot on sight. That would take one more week.

No trials. No appeals. Problem solved.

[edpeak]

I *hope* you are joking, eastbay.

You make even my most militantly AR (animal rights) friends
sound mild by comparison, you make me sound, ummm..
really "soft" eh? ;-)

Killing people who kill animals as a way of showing that killing
is wrong? (to paraphrase from another issue). Then again,
maybe your logic has some mainstream appeal, after
all, people go for: Bombing
countries with thousands of civilins killed as a way of showing
it's wrong to kill civilians. Killing people who kill people as
away of showing that people-killing-people is wrong; etc ;-)

[edpeak]

[said in jest]

P.S. do I get to kill you 'cause I'm vegan but you're only
vegetarian?

[Uh-oh! Our protagonist has a sudden realization!]

[/said in jest]

Oh wait, that means some vegan buy-only-locally
only-organics makes-the-biofuel-for-thefoodgrowing-themselves
person gets to kill me? Ummmm, maybe we forget this
killin stuff then?

Peace man

...time for a group hug!

(daaaam there are a LOT of emoticons when
you click "view more"...we need them organized by
category...too many screenfuls to view @ once...)

[eastbay]

Joking??

I say we just whack the meateaters and then let nature weed out the rest.

Wait 'til you hear the rest of my plan... whoo whoo whoo ha ha ha.

[snax]

Does eating bugs count as carnivorous?

[eastbay]

Yes, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

Mr Bill, it's both admirable and fascinating that you have reduced your 'footprint' so much. We too, are trying to do this, but recognize it only frees up energy we would have otherwise used for others to use. On a practical level, we do it to save money, but it also prepares us for any potential sudden crisis. Today, we buy and plant a few fruit trees.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'Y')es, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

Mr Bill, it's both admirable and fascinating that you have reduced your 'footprint' so much. We too, are trying to do this, but recognize it only frees up energy we would have otherwise used for others to use. On a practical level, we do it to save money, but it also prepares us for any potential sudden crisis. Today, we buy and plant a few fruit trees.

[edpeak]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') say we just whack the meateaters and then let nature weed out the rest.

[Bioman]

I think we don't strengthen "social" technologies enough. We focus too much on energy technologies. Social technologies would be education and socio-medical interventions.

Doctors in Europe and America should launch a government-sponsored campaign to cut back on eating meat, for example.

They would sit in their cabinets and tell each patient that visits for his bi-yearly check up: "and now we are going to help you become a healthier person, in body and mind, we are going to make you more intelligent, and by doing so, we are going to save the planet. Here's the program. And, oh, yeah, it's not like you have a choice. This is mandatory. There's no such thing as individualism and free market capitalism. This is the State speaking. You must."

Those who resist would be sent to the gulag. In the name of the common good. Does anyone have a basic estimate of the amount of energy the world would save if 500 million Europeans and 300 million Americans would consume 75% less meat and poultry?

[Don35]

There is no need to mandate it. Meat and food in general will become much more expensive. We'll be eating less meat because we can't afford it. Look back in time and you see most people ate less meat because it was much too expensive. We just lived in a time of cheap food, meat included. We may become vegetarians for economic reasons!

[manu]

They wouldnt have to make it mandatory, they would just need to promote it some. The reason they dont is, the meat industry lobby, the pharmacutical industry lobby, ect. They are a bunch of twisted freaks who are only intrested in greed, money, and power. The blind leading the blind, right over the cliff.