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Call this a cry of hope!!

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby greenworm » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 16:33:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut extraction of hydrogen from water will require as much energy, as energy released during its combustion to produce water.


Umm, no.

thanks for playing, tell him what he won, the 'I can't add 1 + 1' award.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ounds like nonsense, could you clarify?


It's energy density is greater, but think about it, you can't stuff a large amount of hydrogen in an engine and hope it doesn't blow you to the moon. I think I roughly remember some of the variants of hydrogen to be in the 120 range, while gasoline and oil are about in the 40's. You get way more, but you have to scale down on storage.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') observe, yet another sheep is desperate for energy, which will be denied to it.


My total energy cost for 2006 was, drum roll. $20. :lol: What was yours? :lol:
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby gnm » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 17:33:08

This garbage has been done to death. Hydrogen is lossy to create and is a poor energy carrier owing to its low energy density and ability to leak out of nearly anything. Search these forums for adequate debunking but here is a snip of one previous reply I had which sums up the quantites involved in running an engine.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')snip------------------------
Theres nothing amazing about hydrogen powered ICE engines. They even tend to be a little more efficent than regular gasoline. They run on stored hydrogen at 5-10k psi or stored in hydride form. So here are some example numbers...

2.1 liter engine - uses ~630 liter/min @80psi

Average priced hydrogen generator drawing 1200 watts can produce 600cc/min of hydrogen. Thats 864L/day.... That will run your small car for a minute and a hlf or so... Basically what I am saying is there is no way in hell this car can split its own fuel while running. The engine would have to produce in excess of 12000 watts in addition to the 40-80Hp needed to move the car.

In short they are L Y I N G...

-G



-G :-x
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 18:52:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'C')an this guy's machine do that?

I watched the videos greenworm linked. That appears to be what he's claiming it can do. Of course, there's not enough information to prove it on these videos.


Yeah, I watched the video as well. I'll admit, it did appear to generate an impressive volume of hydrogen very quickly, but I saw no indication whatsoever that the energy generated was greater than the energy expended. In fact, if you advance to time index 2:43, you can actually see the guy bending down and plugging his device into the wall under the work bench. I can't even begin to count the ways that this is not zero-point energy.

A super-efficient water splitter? Sure, why not. Pulses have proven more efficient than constant voltage for various applications in the past, and it's entirely possible that it is also the case here. It certainly looks good, and I honestly hope he makes a fortune on it. But zero-point it is not, no matter what he claims.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby greenworm » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 19:23:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')his is not zero-point energy.


Still have the arguments confused. Let me hold your hand. Zero point energy is with magnets, hydrogen is for combustion. Repeat after me.
1 + 1 = 2.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t certainly looks good, and I honestly hope he makes a fortune on it.


He would have, but he got popped. :cry:
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby greenworm » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 19:28:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'i')s a poor energy carrier owing to its low energy density


Yea, that is why we use it to power rockets. Where do we get these people?
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 19:57:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('greenworm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'i')s a poor energy carrier owing to its low energy density


Yea, that is why we use it to power rockets. Where do we get these people?


OK, maybe you were able to bamboozle some of the lightweights, but now your lobotomy scar is showing. Hydrogen is used as a propellant because of it's high specific impulse, not it's energy density. It's good because it's light. Those SRB's are strapped to the sides of the tank for a reason.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby gnm » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 20:03:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('greenworm', 'W')here do we get these people?


From a energy sciences engineering lab..... You appear to be a moron so I will just add you to my ignore list.... 8)

-G
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 20:14:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', 'T')here's a lot of discussion of this specific fuel cell design and the inventor here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Water_fuel_cell

The article referenced is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fuel_cell

I'm pretty much a believer in thermodynamics, so I can't see this working - but I don't have the time or mental energy to look into it properly.


Wow, those are some great links! I love this little nugget:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wikipedia', 'M')eyer's claims regarding the Water Fuel Cell and the car that it powered were found to be fraudulent by a Ohio court in 1996.


Pure...comedy...gold. I also like this one here:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wikipedia', 'T')he operation of the fuel cell, as described by Meyer, would violate the first law of thermodynamics. Energy would not be conserved, making the device a type of perpetual motion machine. In other words, a car running on a water fuel cell could achieve perpetual motion simply by venting the exhaust pipe (containing water vapour) into the fuel tank (containing water).


Isn't that EXACTLY what I and others have been saying?
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby greenworm » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 20:44:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')sn't that EXACTLY what I and others have been saying?


Yes. Now shut up with the useless noise. No one ever claimed in this entire thread that hydrogen technology is zero point or perpetual motion. Only you keep blabbing about it like a useless monkey.

Now, all we have to do is find a counter point to your claims.
Here is a hint my fine fellow sheep, there are numerous experts who have verified Stan's results. Can you say V-E-R-I-F-I-E-D?

http://www.thelastoutpost.com/site/1167/default.aspx

On 18 October 1995, a pretrial deposition hearing to inspect the WFC Dealership demonstration units (Variable-plate Electrical Polarization Process (VIC) Fuel Cell and Rotary Pulse Voltage Frequecy Generator Tubular-Array Fuel Cell) was held in the office of the plaintiff's attorney, Robert Judkins. Present were the plaintiff's, their attorneys, plaintiffs expert witness, Michael Leverich (Electronics Engineer), Stan Meyer, Dr. Russel Fowler, WFC witness and defense attorneys Judge Roger Hurley and James Detling, as well as a deposition recorder. During the deposition, Attorney Judkins attempted to have the WFC dismantled prior to implementing proper test procedures, which Stan Meyer refused. Michael Leverich confirmed that his initial measurements of the WFC Fuel Cells showed that it operated exactly as the WFC documentation stated it should, as so recorded on WFC Deposition Video Tape. However, he then added a unknown white substance (powder) for additional testing. Stan objected to this, since the WFC Fuel Cell uses plain tap water and does not require a chemical additive. The plaintiffs also admitted that, during their observances at WFC Dealship Seminars, tap water was always used without any chemicals added to the water. Despite Stan's objection, plaintiff measurements were taken of this chemicallized water-bath and recorded. This illegal act of tampering with WFC Evidence of Records was witnessed by WFC Cameraman, Dr. Russ Fowler, and all others who attended Plaintiffs Deposition To-Test.[3]

In 1996, Stan Meyer gave oral testimony before the court demonstrating the WFC Fuel Cell "Mode of Operability" by using the Voltage Intensifier Circuit (VIC) to produce voltage of opposite polarity to separate and disassociate the water molecule into its component gases, hydrogen & oxygen. However, the court audio sound recording equipment seemed to malfunction and was switched off. Judge Corzine said proceedings should continue without it. This was a violation of judicial protocol, since the recording system is used to verify testimony given during the trial and as such becomes "Evidence of Records." After his oral testimony, Stan expected Attorney/Judge Hurley to start bringing forth WFC witnesses and counter arguements. Instead, Attorney/Judge Hurley spoke up, stated he had to leave for a pre-planned vacation and said that there was no more testimony to be given and waived the right of the defendant to give a case summary of the WFC facts brought before the court. Stan Meyer immediately stated he would protest and Judge Corzine ended the hearing. Stan wrote a "Request to Retract" fax-letter to the Sunday Times on 2 December 1996. He attached WFC documentation on the filing with the Disciplinary Counsel. He further stated that Judge Corzine had no right to turn off the court audio sound recording equipment, nor to rule against U.S. Patents, or overrule Government and University lab reports in the public domain concerning the mode of operability of the WFC Technology. Furthermore, Stan pointed out that no US Federal "Cease and Desist" order has ever been issued against WFC since the WFC Technology has been fully legalized under US Patent Security Law 35 USC 101 and other US Federal regulatory Acts. His final statement was that "WFC is here to stay" in contradiction to the Sunday Times statement.[4]
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby greenworm » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 21:19:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')K, maybe you were able to bamboozle some of the lightweights, but now your lobotomy scar is showing. Hydrogen is used as a propellant because of it's high specific impulse, not it's energy density. It's good because it's light. Those SRB's are strapped to the sides of the tank for a reason.



"specific impulse", do you know how this specific impulse occurs? Do you? That impulse is a direct correlation to it's energy density. This will be the last reply, I highly doubt that you have a counterargument to anything worth reading.

{flames deleted by Shannymara}
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 22:07:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('greenworm', '"')specific impulse", do you know how this specific impulse occurs? Do you? Go back to the retard shop and get a tune up. That impulse is a direct correlation to it's energy density.


No. Not even close.

Specific Impulse

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he specific impulse (commonly abbreviated Isp) of a propulsion system is the impulse (change in momentum) per unit mass of propellant. It is used as a measure of the efficiency of the propulsion system. In practice, the specific impulses of real engines vary somewhat with both altitude and thrust; nevertheless, Isp is a useful value to compare engines; much like "miles per gallon" is used for cars.

Depending on whether the amount of propellant is expressed in mass or by weight (conventionally sea level weight on the Earth) the dimensions of specific impulse is either that of impulse per unit mass, or time, respectively, differing by a factor of g, the gravitational acceleration at the surface of the Earth.

...

In addition it is important that thrust and specific impulse not be confused with one another. The specific impulse is a measure of the impulse per unit of propellant that is expended, while thrust is a measure of the momentary or peak force supplied by a particular engine. In most cases, propulsion systems with very high specific impulses (such as ion thrusters: 3000 seconds) produce low thrusts.


Now let me try to simplify that a bit for you.

Hydrogen and oxygen are light. Hydrazine and Nitrogen tetroxide are heavy. 1 unit of hydrogen + 1 unit of oxygen can push x units of hydrogen and oxygen further than one unit of hydrazine and 1 unit of nitrogen tetroxide can push x units of hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide.

No, even that might be too complex for you. Let me try again.

Hydrogen light! easy move! Funny name stuff heavy! hard move!

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('greenworm', 'T')his will be the last reply, I highly doubt that you have a counterargument to anything worth reading. I highly doubt you think for yourself at all.

dreamtwister=head sheep.


Yes, children often pout and storm off when they are wrong and know it. Now that you're leaving, maybe the grownups can talk.
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby greenworm » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 22:11:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'c')hange in momentum


You said it yourself, GFYS! <--look a little puzzle for you.
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 22:21:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('greenworm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'c')hange in momentum


You said it yourself, GFYS! <--look a little puzzle for you.


Change in momentum != energy density. I thought it was past your bedtime?
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby greenworm » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 22:21:48

Sorry for the double post, I'm laughing much too hard at this. Did anyone see the video of the company that developed the continual motion technology (actually, I think it has been around much longer) with Neil Cavuto? I think Neil says (sorry for an inadequate quote) 'You do realize that you are taking the oil companies head on with this technology?" I pissed myself at that point.
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby greenworm » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 22:36:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')hange in momentum != energy density.


Hey, look it, he got one right. Wohoo! Bedtime? I'm retired tittytwister, that would be any 15 minute span within a day. I gotta hunch your momentumus is directly correlated to the forcus, which mightus have sumthin' to do with energy densitus. Ain't it a hoot that we keep talkin' up this density thingamobob, some things can just be so dense.

Hugs and kisses,
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby SchroedingersCat » Thu 01 Feb 2007, 23:56:54

From Xogen: "18 Amp hours of current flowing will liberate approximately 100.2 litres of hydrogen/oxygen gas of which 2/3rds (66.8 litres) is hydrogen and 1/3rd (33.4 litres) is oxygen."

Faraday figured it was more like 54 Amp hours.

So all we need is an energy source to provide 180 Amp hours/minute to run our cars. Shouldn't be too hard.
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby gnm » Fri 02 Feb 2007, 00:15:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SchroedingersCat', 'S')o all we need is an energy source to provide 180 Amp hours/minute to run our cars. Shouldn't be too hard.


I'm sure we can do it with a sort of gerbil/wheel setup.... I'm sure you are being sarcastic but you didn't provide the Voltage for said 180Ah/min.... I've got you covered if its milliampH/min....

whats that greenworm? Sorry, can't hear you..... :lol:

-G :lol:
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby lateralus » Fri 02 Feb 2007, 00:31:22

At the end of the day water will be to precious a commodity to be used as fuel for vehicles that's why I'm designing a new car that runs on hopes and dreams.
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby greenworm » Fri 02 Feb 2007, 01:02:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'w')hats that greenworm? Sorry, can't hear you.....


Density has been redefined as GNM.

First, you state that hydrogen has less energy density than oil/gas where it has three time the amount as oil/gas.

Second, you state some figure as to the calculated amount required. Please, overwhelm me eco boy, give me a link or something.

Lastly, you forgot to understand the part where the results were VERIFIED.

Let me hit ya over the head with it, more energy was extracted than what was used as an input.

Hence, you are now dense. <-- hey look a rhyme.
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Re: Call this a cry of hope!!

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Fri 02 Feb 2007, 01:25:18

You aren't even trying any more. My legs are getting tired from running so many circles around you. I'm going to go sit down until you can show me your working perpetual motion machine.

I'm not going anywhere, I'll be right here waiting.
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