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THE Gas Hoarding / Storage Thread (merged)

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Are you hoarding fuel?

Postby sysfce2 » Tue 25 Apr 2006, 23:35:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Princess', 'I')'m filling my gas tank when it gets half empty. I also put a locking cap on even though I realize if someone really wants my gas, they'll punch a hole in the tank. It's just one of those things that sort of makes me feel better.

I generally fill my tank once a week - to capitalize on the weekly price fluctuations (Tuesday seems to be the cheapest in my area), so that I never run out and have to buy 'expensive' gas :).
I think the locking gas cap though is more of a feel good solution than an antitheft device (although a thief may more on to a car without one). I recently bought a car with one (bought being relative, more like traded for a case of beer :) ), which may explain why I didn't get a key for it... anyways, after a few seconds of examination, and a single well placed tap with a hammer and screwdriver, off it came - I was actually quite shocked at how easy it was... Although it might have been an older model - newer better built caps might be more secure, I don't know....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Leanan', 'I') dunno why they recommend keeping the tank half full. It's just one of those things I always see in articles about how to save fuel. I assume it's the usual - fuel pump overheating and sediment at the bottom of the gas tank clogging your filter.

I wouldn't think that keeping your tank half full would help with fuel efficiency - generally the lower the better for that as it's less weight to haul around. But I suspect it'd be something they mention to help prevent people from trying to save fuel by running them too low. It significantly shortens fuel pump life when the fuel level is low in most fuel injected cars, as the fuel is used to cool in-tank pumps. I don't know though that sediment would be much of a factor, as the fuel pump intake is already at the bottom of the tank.
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Re: Are you hoarding fuel?

Postby Princess » Wed 26 Apr 2006, 00:14:19

I'm feeling very fortunate, sysfce2. I started a long-term temp assignment just 10 miles from my house and rush-hour traffic is going in the opposite direction. Last week, it took less than half a tank to get to work AND run errands on Saturday.
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Re: Are you hoarding fuel?

Postby meekoil » Wed 26 Apr 2006, 01:29:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('sysfce2', 'I')t significantly shortens fuel pump life when the fuel level is low in most fuel injected cars, as the fuel is used to cool in-tank pumps.


Well, I learned something today, thanks sysfce2.
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Re: Are you hoarding fuel?

Postby Decontaxable » Wed 26 Apr 2006, 02:04:21

you know, maybe I should buy a gas station. by next week my investment will have doubled and I can lock the pumps any time.
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Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby MonteQuest » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 12:50:02

Here is a piece I wrote some time back...a couple of years in fact. I thought I had already posted it on this site, but I can't seem to find it. Note the part I have put in bold. With the new SPR goals, we already have seen the biggest one-day jump in oil prices in 16 months.

During the 1973-74 oil embargo, gas prices doubled within days. Gas rationing resulted in hoarding, and Western economies accustomed to cheap oil sputtered into recession. Rationing of gasoline forced many motorists to wait hours in long lines at gas stations to obtain just a few gallons. Drivers of vehicles with license plates having an odd number as the last digit were allowed to purchase gasoline for their cars only on odd-numbered days of the month, while drivers of vehicles with even-numbered license plates were allowed to purchase fuel only on even-numbered days. People rented their license plates for the day if they had gas and others didn’t.

People slept in their cars overnight to be in the front of the line. You couldn’t buy a locking gas cap, gas can, or siphon device to save your ass. People punched holes in your gas tank with a chisel to get around the locking cap. Fist fights broke out at the pump, tempers flared, guns were drawn; people got hurt.

There was some black market gasoline hoarding. Some people hoarded it for their own use. You would often see two or more 5 gallon Jerry-cans strapped to the bumper of cars or in the backseat. The “approved only” gas containers grew out of this time, as people would fill up milk jugs or glass bottles at the pump. There were lots of Car-B-que's. It wasn’t about the price of gas; it was about getting any at all.

On the world scale, there is a degree of hoarding as well. It is called the Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR). This time around, I think it could have a far larger impact, as it will be a new source of global demand. The U.S. SPR is the largest stockpile of government-owned emergency crude oil in the world. Established in the aftermath of the 70’s oil embargo, the SPR provides the President with a powerful response option should a disruption in commercial oil supplies threaten the U.S. economy. It also allows the United States to meet part of its International Energy Agency obligation to maintain emergency oil stocks, and it provides a national defense fuel reserve.

Developed nations across the globe started to build their own strategic oil reserves in response to the oil crisis in the 1970s. Currently, oil reserves of the United States, Japan and Germany can meet these countries' oil demands for 57, 161 and 127 days, respectively. As oil prices continue to skyrocket, oil-guzzling developed nations are taking measures to increase their strategic oil storage.

China is building a national strategic petroleum reserve that will consist of three tank farms, co-located with major refineries, and will be built and filled in phases, with the first phase using its own oil. According to Zhenhai Strategic Oil Reserve Administration in east China's Zhejiang Province, 16 oil-tank facilities will be completed by the end of August 2005 and oil storage is expected to start by year-end.

Construction on four more oil reserve bases will be finished by the end of 2008. The strategic oil reserve will provide the equivalent of the country’s 30-day oil imports.

India is planning to set up a strategic petroleum reserve equal to 15 days of the country's oil consumption.

And who knows how much speculator hoarding we will see as oil prices head for the moon. My main point is that today the futures market is telling people to hoard oil. That includes not just refiners with inventories. It also includes anyone with oil in the ground. The futures markets are saying, "If you leave the oil there, it will be worth more later, so don't bother pumping any oil now."

If gas rationing comes to your town, be prepared for the worst; it can and will get ugly.
Last edited by MonteQuest on Sun 28 Jan 2007, 11:36:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby SoothSayer » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 13:04:05

Good post MQ.

Hoarding will be one of the canaries in the mine.

It will be a "wisdom of the masses" indicator that a resource is at risk of becoming rare and/or expensive.
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby Tyler_JC » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 15:43:29

Great post Monte, it reminds me of a "what-if" article I read about Norway.
The article created a scenario in which Norway decided to stop exporting oil in order to save more for its own future use and as a result, oil prices exploded and US warships were on their way to the North Sea to "negotiate" with the Scandinavians.
Countries like Venezuela, Iran, Nigeria, etc. will continue to pump out at full speed ahead because they are extremely poor and need the revenue to fund their governments. But what about countries that could stockpile more of their own oil production without causing fiscal dangers and in fact, might actually help their balance sheet?

If Saudi Arabia cut exports by 10% and then oil prices rose by 15%...the kingdom would have a double benefit. They could get more revenue and keep more of their oil for future sale. If more oil exporting countries follow the same logical path, we could be looking at an artificial peak within the next year or two regardless of what would be geologically possible!
Remember, in the 70s when OPEC cut oil exports, they actually saw an increase in total revenue despite significantly reduced volume. Will history repeat itself?
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby MonteQuest » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 16:00:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', ' ')If Saudi Arabia cut exports by 10% and then oil prices rose by 15%...the kingdom would have a double benefit. They could get more revenue and keep more of their oil for future sale.

Or even better, their own use.
Remember this thread I wrote?
Oil Income and Population
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Montequest', ' ')What is their long-term plan to provide for these population increases? Reduce production and raise the price so they can subsist on the revenues longer?

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic2049.html
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby MrBill » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 16:22:31

MonteQuest.
An SPR in a 'importing country' does not add to demand in the long-term. It is a cushion against short-term supply disruptions. In my opinion a 'hefty' SPR by users or importers of crude reduces the leverage of oil producing countries.
As we clearly saw in 2006 this geo-political premium was circa $20 per barrel. Hefty, by any measurement. If all energy users have adequate SPRs then it reduces this emergency suppy premium for everyone. I would sooner see that crude users have their own SPRs of 50-60 days (I think your 150-160 days is wrong?) usage than be held hostage to Iran's political whims?

Also, as for hoarding. There is naturally a shelf-life to gasoline. You are right. It is nasty out there if you need to fill your tank. But SPRs and hoarding of gasoline are two different themes.
As we have seen already elderly people in particular have been victimized by fuel oil thieves last winter. Even on farms where many have their own storage tanks this is a problem. So hoarding is only as effective as your abiltity to guard your stash!
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby MonteQuest » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 16:33:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', 'M')onteQuest.
An SPR in a 'importing country' does not add to demand in the long-term.

Tell that to the markets.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '(')I think your 150-160 days is wrong?)

Wrong? They aren't my numbers, they are what my research showed.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lso, as for hoarding. There is naturally a shelf-life to gasoline.

Yes, most refined gasolione is designed for 6 weeks but can be stored for about a year, especially with additives. There is a thread in the Conservation forum on gas shelf life, I think.
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby cube » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 16:33:52

In the long run having a SPF is pointless. If we all agree that the ultimate fate of crude production is to drop.....can you imagine anything more worthless then a gigantic container designed to hold crude oil? :lol:
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby MonteQuest » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 16:39:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I')n the long run having a SPF is pointless. If we all agree that the ultimate fate of crude production is to drop.....can you imagine anything more worthless then a gigantic container designed to hold crude oil? :lol:

Kinda depends on whether it is full or not, doesn't it? :)
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby NeoPeasant » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 17:21:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', ' ')People slept in their cars overnight to be in the front of the line. You couldn’t buy a locking gas cap, gas can, or siphon device to save your ass. People punched holes in your gas tank with a chisel to get around the locking cap. Fist fights broke out at the pump, tempers flared, guns were drawn; people got hurt.
There was some black market gasoline hoarding. Some people hoarded it for their own use. You would often see two or more 5 gallon Jerry-cans strapped to the bumper of cars or in the backseat. The “approved only” gas containers grew out of this time, as people would fill up milk jugs or glass bottles at the pump. There were lots of Car-B-que's. It wasn’t about the price of gas; it was about getting any at all.
If gas rationing comes to your town, be prepared for the worst; it can and will get ugly.

When the gas lines come, I will walk or cycle by them in peace. I will not be joining them. When the rationing starts, I will dutifully collect my share, and then barter it for whatever my neighbors might have that I consider useful.
The battle to preserve our lifestyle has already been lost. The battle to preserve our lives is just beginning.
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby MonteQuest » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 17:38:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NeoPeasant', ' ')When the gas lines come, I will walk or cycle by them in peace. I will not be joining them. When the rationing starts, I will dutifully collect my share, and then barter it for whatever my neighbors might have that I consider useful.

Maids, Butlers and Chaffeurs had a hard time queing up to buy gas for their employers. Folks in line didn't want no damn "proxy" gas buyers. You want gas, you wait in line like everyone else. Don't send "stand-ins".
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby IanC » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 17:49:35

Is it just cynical of me to suspect that the SPR isn't for you and me but for the military and other government/elite types? If supplies are truly disrupted for months, will we waste the SPR keeping people driving to their dead-end jobs and the trucks delivering cheap plastic junk?
My guess is that if the disruptions last that long, the only vehicles we'll see on the road are military HUMVEES and troop transports, armored Cadillac Escalades driven by really rich people, and natural gas busses taking the unruly to KBR's detention camps. I'll be biking with Neopeasant and trying to grow more potatoes in my yard. That and trying to stay slim so I'm not rendered for biofuel.
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby cube » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 18:00:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'I')n the long run having a SPF is pointless. If we all agree that the ultimate fate of crude production is to drop.....can you imagine anything more worthless then a gigantic container designed to hold crude oil? :lol:

Kinda depends on whether it is full or not, doesn't it? :)
Okay fine, you have a full tank of crude that will last you for a year. So what? What do you do after 1 year? Relative to the fate of an entire civilization what is 1 year worth?
There is a sense of complacency amongst the general public. It should be noted that during the 1 - 2 punch of hurricane season last time, there was NO real physical shortage of crude per say. It was bullish sentiment that pushed the prices up. The market was technically Overbought so it was due for a correction anyways. That's why prices dropped so easily when crude was released fromt the SPR.
Once the real deal happens aka PO. No amount of release from the SPR is going to make a difference.
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby MonteQuest » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 18:11:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'O')kay fine, you have a full tank of crude that will last you for a year.

Oh, we could wage war for quite a while with 1.5 billion gallons of crude. Lot longer than one year.
But I get your point.
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby MonteQuest » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 18:15:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', ' ')It should be noted that during the 1 - 2 punch of hurricane season last time, there was NO real physical shortage of crude per say. It was bullish sentiment that pushed the prices up. The market was technically Overbought so it was due for a correction anyways. That's why prices dropped so easily when crude was released fromt the SPR.

Would do some homework. No oil was released from the SPR that I know of. Some deposits were halted. Refined products were brought over from Europe to meet demand.
And where did you get the idea that there was no actual shortage?
Refineries and transport lines were down while a huge segment of gas and oil was shut -in. Some still is.
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby SoothSayer » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 18:16:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')kay fine, you have a full tank of crude that will last you for a year. So what? What do you do after 1 year? Relative to the fate of an entire civilization what is 1 year worth?

You might stay employed longer - or even outlive - a large percentage of your unprepared neighbours ..
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Re: Hoarding Gas and Oil

Postby JPL » Sat 27 Jan 2007, 19:28:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'I')f gas rationing comes to your town, be prepared for the worst; it can and will get ugly.

Hi MQ
One of the things that scares me is the fact that (on a quick back-of-the envelope-calculation) most of the people around now don't even remember the 70's Oil crises.
We have to be in our 40's at least to even have childhood memories - scary :o(
One of the things I remember about growing up in 70's Britian was how serious the Energy Crisis was - we had rotating power cuts and the 'working week' was cut to three days - to save power. Everything shut down, on a rolling basis, across the country. You had evenings when you would have power, and others when you would not. The times of the shut-down were posted in the media, and you would prepare for them as best you could.

With typical British punctuality, of course, you could rely on the power being cut off, and coming back on, EXACTLY when they said it would, in the papers. I guess that was one of the things that kept us going ;o)
And yes, I remember the queues for petrol, and the ration coupons (which were never used in the end, but my dad kept them until about 1990, just in case!)
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