[thuja]

Aaron I would have to agree that trying to tackle this problem locally will in no way solve the overall geological problem of oil depletion. It will, however, allow individual communities to mitigate and adapt to the coming crisis as much as possible.

There is no solution to this problem. But I ask you this, would you rather live in Houston or Portland, OR? Would you choose the one with the mitigation plan or the one that is choosing to build more Suburbia on a depleted aquifer and has no mitigation plan?

[retiredguy]

That's why I continue to like winters here - keeps the Californians out and the population manageable. The population is still not sustainable, however. But that situation will correct itself quickly.

You mentioned Houston. How about Phoenix or Las Vegas? Places that, without outside help, could support 2 or 3 humans per square mile.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'A')aron I would have to agree that trying to tackle this problem locally will in no way solve the overall geological problem of oil depletion. It will, however, allow individual communities to mitigate and adapt to the coming crisis as much as possible.

There is no solution to this problem. But I ask you this, would you rather live in Houston or Portland, OR? Would you choose the one with the mitigation plan or the one that is choosing to build more Suburbia on a depleted aquifer and has no mitigation plan?

[gego]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')
We should all bend our collective efforts to global ideas for managing our energy future.

Portland won't escape the consequences of hydrocarbon depletion unless we can manage the energy problems of the planet.

[thuja]

Aaron- I agree that there needs to be concerted globalized effort to tackle the peak...and yes, we are all connected so that no one community will stand alone.

But you start to lose me when you say that Houston will fare better in the short term- perhaps due to proximity to oil fields and processing factories. But you neglect to discuss access to water, proximity to arable land, global warming related coastal hurricaines. Sorry, Houston gets a big thumbs down.

ONe thing that our present federal govt. is teaching us over and over again is that communities (and by that I mean cities, counties and states) need to prepare for the future without hoping for federal, let alone international support.

When you talk about concerted global effort, I am reminded of a watered down measly accord known as Kyoto that was shot down on the grounds that it would harm business for the countries that chose not to ratify (U.S., Australia, etc.) Hoping for a "Grand Solution" will not help us prepare for the future. Choosing to be in communities that are actively preparing for a low-carbon future is paramount.

I am not a utopian and I am far from believing that communities with a Peak Oil task force will be able to fully prepare for what is to come. But I do believe that it is probably our best shot, and we may be able to mitigate the worst of the coming tide.

So choose Houston. I think you would find few who would agree that this will be a smart place to live. I don't know if you are saying it to be a contrarian or if you really believe it. In any event, I do firmly believe that smaller communities need to take the lead and that hopefully the larger world will follow suit.

[Aaron]

Ah yes... but you forget that oil companies invest decades out & budget accordingly.

This means that for some time to come, oil companies will be unconventionally profitable.

We already see this today, with record profits among the oil majors. That means money for Houston & the surrounding area, at least for a while.

You sure seem willing to condemn this place, but are unsurprisingly more willing to accept the benefits from the energy this town makes available to you.

And like my old buddy Jack used to say... any place is paradise if you can afford it.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') do firmly believe that smaller communities need to take the lead and that hopefully the larger world will follow suit.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', '.')..I have often posted that it is idiotic to share this information with the general population, given that the room on the lifeboats is limited. Why do you want to help others to your own detriment? If you tell everyone, what chance will you have to get a little bit of sustainable paradise as everyone runs for the door at once?

[thuja]

Ok, using "Aaron logic", unless you have a terrawatt solution, then nothing else matters. You might as well buy a Hummer and build a 5000 square foot McMansion. Because even if you cut consumption in your little boutique community, some other community will just use up the energy. So what's the point right? Burn the fuel...Exploit the last fumes of the dying petroleum age. Move to Houston..."Aaron logic".

Sorry if I'm being a little harsh with you but most people on this board would agree that a multi-pronged approach is essential...international and local.

Let's take an example...you know a tsunami is coming and the Fed has not instituted a warning system. You try to warn a few close friends and family, and then you get as far as you can to higher ground. You may not make it but at least you've tried.

But Aaron, lets get a little more close to home. Are you saying you have taken no immediate steps to conserve, to use less, to prepare for a world with less fossil fuels? Because that is what you are advocating...just want to clarify.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'O')k, using "Aaron logic", unless you have a terrawatt solution, then nothing else matters. You might as well buy a Hummer and build a 5000 square foot McMansion. Because even if you cut consumption in your little boutique community, some other community will just use up the energy. So what's the point right? Burn the fuel...Exploit the last fumes of the dying petroleum age. Move to Houston..."Aaron logic".

Sorry if I'm being a little harsh with you but most people on this board would agree that a multi-pronged approach is essential...international and local.

Let's take an example...you know a tsunami is coming and the Fed has not instituted a warning system. You try to warn a few close friends and family, and then you get as far as you can to higher ground. You may not make it but at least you've tried.

But Aaron, lets get a little more close to home. Are you saying you have taken no immediate steps to conserve, to use less, to prepare for a world with less fossil fuels? Because that is what you are advocating...just want to clarify.

[thuja]

Aaron- I am in complete agreement that much of what is branded "sustainable" in terms of energy efficient appliances, ethanol, smart cars, etc., is a mockery of the term. Why? Because they still consume a lot of energy (appliances), require a lot of energy to build them (cars) or have a net EROEI loss.

So in terms of these pathetic stop-gap measures, I completely agree. They are almost worse because they fool the populace into thinking we are doing something. But dig a little deeper man. There are very useful things that we can do-

Use less- Just drive a lot less. Bike. Garden. Eat out of your garden. Get used to wearing sweaters. Work close to home and bike commute. Join a CSA. Develop relationships with your farmer friends. Share your home with boarders. Avoid buying processed food. Don't fly. Plant fruit trees. Work with your city council to promote bicycling, mass transit, permaculture, victory gardens, etc. By the way these are all things that Portland has implemented.

Will these things solve the world's energy problems? Far from it. That peak and decline is coming fast. What will it do? Help you prepare for a world of very expensive energy. You will not be as shocked. You will learn to do without. By the way I am a therapist. Pretty funny. I can console people as their lives turn to shit.

And yes, I agree with working tirelessly to looking for international solutions. But what are you doing on a personal level? Please try to explain to me your rationale for not conserving energy.

[retiredguy]

Thuja,

The answer to your question is easy. Unless everyone subscribes to the "less is more" philosophy, saving energy on an individual basis is going to accomplish nothing. My energy savings are being consumed by my neighbors who love their ATVs, boats, and monster trucks.

Then there is always the doomsday scenario.

If the grid suddenly collapsed right now, my neighbors, knowing that I burn wood for heat, garden, and have a stockpile of food, will all be knocking on my door asking to be taken in.

On our own, my wife and I could last to summer, but how long would we last surrounded as an island in a sea of starving and freezing humanity?

[retiredguy]

AAron, Thuja:

Sorry for butting into your conversation. This topic has come up several times recently with people I know, and it tripped my trigger.

Getting back to the subject of this thread, this story was the lead last night on the local ABC affiliate. The locals pols, all liberals, thought the Peak Oil Task Force's recommendations was a joke.

The reporter seemed equally baffled.

Not a very encouraging response from a city like Madison which likes to consider itself very progressive.

I would guess the author, who was interviewed for the piece, frequents this site.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'S')o called "Sustainable Local Communities" won't be anything but a business opportunity for some, until the world runs out of bullets.

[thuja]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('retiredguy', 'T')huja,

The answer to your question is easy. Unless everyone subscribes to the "less is more" philosophy, saving energy on an individual basis is going to accomplish nothing. My energy savings are being consumed by my neighbors who love their ATVs, boats, and monster trucks.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('thuja', 'H')ere's an example happening right now. My friend chose to live his life free of a car. He now saves tons of money not paying for upkeep, gasoline, insurance, etc. By saving that money he cut back on his work hours and has more time to tinker in his garden, grow some more veggies and play with his young daughter.

IN the future when mass transit and food becomes more expensive, he can use any excess money to pay for those expenses. In other words, he is better prepared. Did he help to solve the world's energy crisis? Hell no- did he better his personal situation and helped prepare himself for a world with less fossil fuels. Absolutely.

It is honestly hard to believe that intelligent people such as yourselves would say- "Ah it doesn't matter...Think I'll go buy a leafblower."

[thuja]

By not answering my response, you are in essence endorsing excessive consumption. Please don't direct me to books or pamphlets...

Do you believe that taking individual conservation methods have merit or do you believe that we should all be excessively consumptive? Its a simple question.

[Aaron]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t is honestly hard to believe that intelligent people such as yourselves would say- "Ah it doesn't matter...Think I'll go buy a leafblower."

[thuja]

Wait- you have said that you believe that there needs to be an imnternational concerted effort towards reducing consumption that is spread equally- until what?

Where is this grand experiment of yours leading?

How selfish of you to lead people into thinking there is an answer to this problem. Everyone will get on board with gas taxes and carbon caps- until...people realize there is no alternative. What a false little paradigm you are selling people.

And then you come and tell me that local efforts towards weaning off fossil fuels is causing the problem...
Wow. Balls.

You are saying that the only way to get through this is for some overarching federal and international body to create mandates that demand reduced fossil fuel consumption. But if anyone does it on a local level, they are causing a greater problem. What logic planet are you on?

Self-serving...you have been essentially preaching that we should be excessively consumptive because that is better for the planet. Wow.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('retiredguy', '.')..On our own, my wife and I could last to summer, but how long would we last surrounded as an island in a sea of starving and freezing humanity?