[khebab]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'C')hechnya mean anything?
Islamic terrorists hold SCHOOLCHILDREN hostage. Some 500 are killed.
CHILDREN.

You can say "Evil is open to definition" but I say bullshit. Name one other time a school was taken over by extremists and hundreds of schoolchildren murdered in the name of a "God". I have a very low opinion os the Islamic religion at this point. We dont send our women and children with bombs strapped to their chests to blow up airplanes, bus stops and intentionally murder innocents. I see Islam as the Religion of ChickenShits. I wouldnt send my wife or children to do my dirty work.

Let me put it simply for you.
Islam wants you dead. Plan accordingly.

[Guest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '
')Already happeend, although not that bad. ELF (I believe, may have been Green Peace) spray painted a bunch of SUV's on a car dealership lot.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KiddieKorral', 'S')crew it. I give up.

[KiddieKorral]

Well shoot, now you tell me! See, now we're getting somewhere.

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', 'I') think from a human perspective evil is pretty well defined, it is our definition of good and the associated concept of justifiability which brings us into problems. However your right when you're saying that that is merely something which is embedded in the boot sector of our brain, not a universal and measurable truth.

If you want to go beyond that you're talking about the existence of a universal evil. You ask pretty hard questions, but I'll give it a shot.

[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he way I show this is to invite people to send forth their definition of evil and show for each definition that it is either a local concept or that it leads to contradictions.

[gg3]

Smiley: And sociopaths are not hard-wired for conscience, which exception tends to prove (rather than disprove) the rule.

Ohanian:

Real = independent of the observer.

Okay, I give you a dose of a neuropeptide called "scotophobin" and you report experiencing fear of light, and you exhibit the behavior of avoidance of brightly-lit places. Or I give you a blocker for that substance and you behave in the opposite manner. By the way, this works repeatably with rats.

There are hundreds of known neuropeptides, and the research into that area has also sharpened the knowledge of the degree to which more common hormones and neurotransmitters affect perception, emotion, and cognition. Think of dopamine and serotonin for starters.

BTW the person who made the original discoveries of neuropeptides, specifically the endorphins (Candace Pert) subsequently came to believe that consciousness is still too complex for a materialist monist interpretation; she has stated publicly that she believes consciousness survives death of the brain/body.

Or, if you don't like chemicals: I hook you up to an EEG and you go to sleep, and when I see rapid eye movements and a certain brainwave signature, I can wake you up and be quite sure you'll report having a dream. Or you sit still, with eyes closed, and focus your attention on your breathing for about ten minutes, and I see an increase in slow alpha frequencies. Or, you perform a complex task requiring high alertness and concentration, and the EEG shows high-frequency beta (now called "gamma") frequencies.

All of this "objective correlates of subjective states" stuff started in the 1940s and 50s with two discoveries: LSD (if a few micrograms of a compound are sufficient to produce radical alterations of consciousness, then it follows that since the production of substances in such quantities is well within the capability of the brain and body in general, other more commonplace alterations of consciousness must also have neurochemical correlates), and REM sleep (as per my example about rapid eye movements and dreaming).

By the way, color is real. The words people use for colors are nothing more than convenient abstractions for the combination of a) light of partcular wavelengths in angstrom units, plus b) brightness. I would be perfectly happy if children were raised to speak of color in angstroms, and brightness in lumens. Instead of speaking of "dark green," they would say "so many Angstroms by so many Lumens." (Hmm, this gives me an idea!)

Your serial killer example:

Doesn't go. You could do a similar exercise with a coprophiliac: "I love to crap on the street and then pick up my turds and smear them on the wall of the nearest building, and I think everyone should do likewise as a matter of universal principle! Here, have some shit on a shingle!"

Your serial killer, and my coprophiliac, both fulfill diagnostic criteria for various forms of psychotic illness. And those illnesses in turn each have objective correlates in terms of damage to the brain.

I personally know a psychopharmacologist who has developed an experimental compound that produces a temporary state which is indistinguishable from the baseline state of the sociopath. This individual is pretty widely known, and has more new mind-drug discoveries to his name than anyone who's ever lived, Albert Hoffmann included. When we last spoke, we discussed a (rather expensive) research program that would lead toward the potential for developing drugs that could repair the damage that causes sociopathy.

Again for emphasis: a drug to cure sociopathy. Anyone who understands the full implications of that statement, also understands that it has the potential to be world-changing, and in fact to save us from the worst potentials of our species. Think of this: no more Stalins, Hitlers, Pol Pots, or grubby little two-bit robbers who think nothing of shooting Grandma to get her purse. No more Ivan Boeskys, no more con-men, no more fraud, no more casual violence in the pursuit of personal gain. No more "greed is good at all cost," no more of any of that horrific bullshit from the ghetto streets to the corporate suites that enables such dysfunctional individuals to climb eagerly over their victims in the singleminded pursuit of thrillls or power.

Note that I am not talking about an end to all crime, or even an end to violent crime. Poverty would still be a cause of theft, and inflamed passions would still lead to assaults and murders. What would be stopped, or at least greatly reduced, is that particular type of mindset that can commit large and small atrocities, both illegal and legal, with no conscience and no regard whatsoever for the victim.

If I were rich, I'd write that scientist an 8-figure check to get his research program going, develop the drug, get it through testing, and get it into the hands of every doctor on Earth as cheaply as possible. (Hmm, that suggests another idea; email sent to appropriate person).

Evil acts vs. punishable acts:

These two sets overlap but are not identical. Evil can be operationalized as actions which are cruel, which destroy knowledge, which are taken with indifference as to their consequences to others, or which cause regression of society from civilization toward barbarianism.

And, an evil person is one who derives gratification from evil acts. Strictly speaking, I would regard that as a psychiatric illness, that should be treated (via my scientist's future medication above, or some subsequent derivative) if at all possible. However, classification as a psych disorder should not preclude punishment for evil acts (as with pedophila and child molestation: the pedophile by definition has a psychosexual disorder, but this does not preclude punishment for molesting children).

More later...

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KiddieKorral', 'W')ell shoot, now you tell me! See, now we're getting somewhere.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ohanian', '
')
The way I show this is to invite people to send forth their definition of evil and show for each definition that it is either a local concept or that it leads to contradictions.

The idea that "Evil does not exists" is not a local concept and does not leads to contradictions. But most people do not like it. You might as well tell them that God/Allah does not exists. They will reject it. They will not listen to you. You might as well have horns and a tail.

[Specop_007]

Speaking of evil, I'm hoisting up my swastika, grabbing my K98 and gonna kill some of them stinkin ass Americans that have invaded my Homeland. To the Fuhrur!

/loads Day of Defeat

(Thats a sweet ass game, I recommend you get it. I'll spank you tooshy in it too. )

[KiddieKorral]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'O')k, so let me ask you.
As a woman (Well, girl maybe ) why is it you choose to follow a religion that oppresses women?

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KiddieKorral', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'O')k, so let me ask you.
As a woman (Well, girl maybe ) why is it you choose to follow a religion that oppresses women?

[KiddieKorral]

That's one of those things you can only understand with firsthand experience.

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'R')eal = independent of the observer.

Okay, I give you a dose of a neuropeptide called "scotophobin" and you report experiencing fear of light, and you exhibit the behavior of avoidance of brightly-lit places. Or I give you a blocker for that substance and you behave in the opposite manner. By the way, this works repeatably with rats.

There are hundreds of known neuropeptides, and the research into that area has also sharpened the knowledge of the degree to which more common hormones and neurotransmitters affect perception, emotion, and cognition. Think of dopamine and serotonin for starters.

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ohanian', '
')
The way I show this is to invite people to send forth their definition of evil and show for each definition that it is either a local concept or that it leads to contradictions.

The idea that "Evil does not exists" is not a local concept and does not leads to contradictions. But most people do not like it. You might as well tell them that God/Allah does not exists. They will reject it. They will not listen to you. You might as well have horns and a tail.

[gg3]

What I think KiddieKorral is saying, is that Islam, like the other Western monotheisms that evoved in the Middle East, can coexist with equality for women in the same manner as Judaism and Christianity have learned to do so. And after all the case could be made that the latter two faiths also contain components that are oppressive of women, e.g. the Orthodox Jewish prayer that includes the line about thanking God for not being born a woman.

And also, what I think KK is saying, is that the oppression of women that is often blamed on Islam, is more accurately a factor of primitive tribal cultures in the Middle East that have not evolved over time; and that similar factors will be found in the local adherents of each of the aforementioned monotheisms.

And last but not least, the existence of primitive tribal cultural elements within each of these religions does not invalidate them any more than the presence of criminals in a society makes the entire society criminal. But rather, there is a higher component to each of these religions that has a value whose goodness is far more significant, and this was the basis on which she was called to Islam.

Is that approximately correct?


Re Ohanian & objective reality:

I do quite understand, but I don't agree.

We have here light composed of Generic Photons, with the characteristics of frequency X and amplitude Y, which can be measured by an instrument.

We also have here an observer, Bob, who reports that the light has the color Blue, or more specifically, Dark Indigo.

You say that the Blue does not exist without Bob, and therefore that the Blue is not real.

I say that the system "Bob with Photons" is real, and has measurable characteristics that are repeatable with other observers. Bob goes back to the waiting room, and the next subject, Carol, comes in, and we give her a similar set of photons, and she also says "Blue," or more specifically, "Dark Indigo."

I have here a set of vibrations in air, that I can measure as the combination of 697 Hz and 1209 Hz, each at 0 dB. However I refer to them as "digit 1 on your telephone keypad" Any observer with similar training will say the same thing.

The nexus of the disagreement is that you claim that all subjective phenomena are by definition "not real." I claim that they are, and I can show you the objective correlates: the measurable change in blood levels of specific compounds, the measureable change in EEG output.

I can also produce sets of logical instructions ("How to Meditate") which, when inserted into a human brain and run accordingly, produce reliably measurable and repeatable outcomes.

I can also prove to you that you do not act in a manner that's consistent with your stated beliefs. Do you care about the taste of your food? Do you listen to music? Do you consume alcohol, tobacco, coffee, cola, tea, chocolate, or cannabis? Do you have sex without the intent of producing babies? If subjective states are not real, you wouldn't answer Yes to any of those questions. Just one Yes is all it takes!:-).

Mr. Serial Killer has a measurable mental problem, yes. However the problem does not result in the complete breakdown of his perception, cognition, and emotion, otherwise he would also walk into walls and be unable to pick himself up. Even chronic undifferentiated schizophrenics make sense some of the time. And even my hypothetical coprophiliac knows how to wipe his bottom when he doesn't feel like smearing his turds upon the nearest wall.

And yes, there are a number of nearly-universal perceptual, cognitive, and emotional dysfunctions in humans, which vary in degree and content according to both individual and cultural characteristics. One of them is denial, there are others. However that does not prove or disprove my larger point.

Religious zealots do not at present use the concept of "mental dysfunction" to discredit their enemies. Speaking as a gay person in a country whose leadership intends to forbid me the right to legally-recognized monogamy, the latest term used for the purpose of scapegoating, is "lifestyle choice." This combines the 1960s liberal buzzword "lifestyle," with the term "choice" which is also used in the abortion debate, thereby creating a doubly-effective hate-phrase by way of the subconscious associations to the language.

In fact, haters generally will use any effective strategy to deny the humanity of their chosen targets; "mental dysfunction" being only one such strategy. However the fact that haters use "mental dysfunction" as a strategy to deny standing to their targets, does not invalidate the concept of mental dysfunction in general. Tell someone who suffers from depression or chronic anxiety that there is no such thing as mental dysfunction, and see what they say.

You close by saying "An evil person is one who derives gratification from evil acts. So what are evil acts? Acts by an evil person? Circular definition." It appears you didn't read the first paragraph of my two-paragraph statement you quoted immediately before your reply:

"Evil can be operationalized as actions which are cruel, which destroy knowledge, which are taken with indifference as to their consequences to others, or which cause regression of society from civilization toward barbarianism."

Those are evil acts. An evil person is someone who obtains gratification from performing those acts. Not circular.

[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e have here light composed of Generic Photons, with the characteristics of frequency X and amplitude Y, which can be measured by an instrument.

We also have here an observer, Bob, who reports that the light has the color Blue, or more specifically, Dark Indigo.

You say that the Blue does not exist without Bob, and therefore that the Blue is not real.

I say that the system "Bob with Photons" is real, and has measurable characteristics that are repeatable with other observers. Bob goes back to the waiting room, and the next subject, Carol, comes in, and we give her a similar set of photons, and she also says "Blue," or more specifically, "Dark Indigo."

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ohanian', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ohanian', '
')
The way I show this is to invite people to send forth their definition of evil and show for each definition that it is either a local concept or that it leads to contradictions.

The idea that "Evil does not exists" is not a local concept and does not leads to contradictions. But most people do not like it. You might as well tell them that God/Allah does not exists. They will reject it. They will not listen to you. You might as well have horns and a tail.

[KiddieKorral]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'W')hat I think KiddieKorral is saying, is that Islam, like the other Western monotheisms that evoved in the Middle East, can coexist with equality for women in the same manner as Judaism and Christianity have learned to do so. And after all the case could be made that the latter two faiths also contain components that are oppressive of women, e.g. the Orthodox Jewish prayer that includes the line about thanking God for not being born a woman.

And also, what I think KK is saying, is that the oppression of women that is often blamed on Islam, is more accurately a factor of primitive tribal cultures in the Middle East that have not evolved over time; and that similar factors will be found in the local adherents of each of the aforementioned monotheisms.

And last but not least, the existence of primitive tribal cultural elements within each of these religions does not invalidate them any more than the presence of criminals in a society makes the entire society criminal. But rather, there is a higher component to each of these religions that has a value whose goodness is far more significant, and this was the basis on which she was called to Islam.

Is that approximately correct?

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', '
')I reiterate. Your playing word games. I know of no culture, past OR present, in which rape, theft or murder was considered "good" or was accepted. So thats evil in a universal sense. One could sum to, To do harm to your fellow man is evil. Thats pretty much been the general consensus throughout time.