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Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Who is this site's most hard core right-winger?

TommyJefferson
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Specop_007
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Total votes : 15

Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby Lokutus » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 02:40:10

Have I missed any extremists?
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 02:45:50

There's always our most hard-core lassez faire capitalist: Jack
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby NEOPO » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 02:49:54

I guess!

Tommy has gone soft recently revealing a soft fury under belly that him like rubbed..... yes him do :)

Specop thinks yer talking about an 80's rock band so he dont count :lol:

Uhm yeah I think you missed them all yet if I pointed them out then it wouldnt be no fun for you now would it?

Do terrorists count?
and neocons?
and zionists?
All the same bunch of satan worshipping right wing wackos if ya ask me.....
It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby Loki » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 03:28:50

What happened to rwwff/AgentR? I haven't seen him around for a while. He used to post like 20 times a day. He was pretty right wing---he could rationalize away pretty much anything the neocon evildoers did.

Does Specop even post any more? And I don't see TJ as being all that "right wing." Just libertarian, which can go either way. As for "extremism," I find a lot of lefties to be pretty extreme. Nanny state, nanny state, please take care of me, and make sure I'm never ever offended in any way. And take away all those bad guns while you're at it. :razz:
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby DesertBear2 » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 03:55:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', ' ')And I don't see TJ as being all that "right wing." Just libertarian, which can go either way.


Yes. TJ is libertarian at core.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'A')s for "extremism," I find a lot of lefties to be pretty extreme. Nanny state, nanny state, please take care of me, and make sure I'm never ever offended in any way. And take away all those bad guns while you're at it. :razz:


No. It's nanny state, nanny state you must take care of me. And make good all of the bad decisions I have made in my life by raising taxes on everybody but me.
"In Jerusalem ... the angry face of Yahweh is brooding over the hot rocks which have seen more holy murder, rape and plunder than any other place on earth. Its inhabitants are poisoned by religion."- Arthur Koestler
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby Doly » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 05:26:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', 'A')nd I don't see TJ as being all that "right wing." Just libertarian, which can go either way.


TJ, as his name indicates, is jeffersonian, which is normally considered a variety of libertarian. I'd say libertarians don't "go either way", it's rather that they're neither right or left, because they don't have an agenda for the government, they want as little government as possible. They are pretty close to anarchists, when you think about it.

The main difference between a libertarian and an anarchist is that a libertarian believes that what people would do of their own will, if the government didn't interfere, is pretty close to what a right-wing government would want them to do. And an anarchist believes that people would do something pretty close to what a left-wing government would want them to do. A pragmatic anarchist/libertarian (Heinlein and me), believes that people will do what they damn well please if the government doesn't control them, and you may or may not like it personally.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Loki', '
')As for "extremism," I find a lot of lefties to be pretty extreme. Nanny state, nanny state, please take care of me, and make sure I'm never ever offended in any way. And take away all those bad guns while you're at it. :razz:


That isn't really a left-wing ideology, it's political correctness ideology, which is about the worst ever invented.

Lefties traditionally believe in having a lot of rules to make sure private companies don't exploit workers and consumers, and giving benefits to the sick and unemployed, which isn't such a bad idea. But the aim of any true leftie is giving "power to the people", not converting them into spoiled children dependant of the government. It wouldn't be any good to give people independence from big companies if they become dependent on the government. And they're not in the business of making sure that nobody is offended, in fact, they're supposed to be in favour of people being free of doing things that could offend others, like being gay or having abortions.

As for guns, it's an issue that is tied to the right in America, and not tied to anybody in the rest of the developed world but a few radicals. It isn't intrinsically left or right wing, the way I see it. In fact, I could see it defended from an extreme left-wing angle, as carrying guns is an individual right, and left ideology is all about promoting individual rights. I remember a story about a communist arrested for having a gun. In the trial he was told: "You had with you the instrument to kill a man." He retorted: "I also had with me the instrument to rape a woman."
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby Loki » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 06:29:34

Good post Doly. Very insightful.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'T')J, as his name indicates, is jeffersonian, which is normally considered a variety of libertarian. I'd say libertarians don't "go either way", it's rather that they're neither right or left, because they don't have an agenda for the government, they want as little government as possible. They are pretty close to anarchists, when you think about it.

It's been my experience that there are some "conservative" libertarians and some "progressive" libertarians, at least here in the US. But I consider the left-right binary to be mostly bullshit. And yes, I have observed how closely libertarian and anarchist philosophies parallel each other. The main difference seems to be whether they consider themselves conservatives or progressives. But they all like to smoke pot. :-D

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'A')s for guns, it's an issue that is tied to the right in America, and not tied to anybody in the rest of the developed world but a few radicals. It isn't intrinsically left or right wing, the way I see it. In fact, I could see it defended from an extreme left-wing angle, as carrying guns is an individual right, and left ideology is all about promoting individual rights.

Yes, the gun issue is mostly tied to the right here in the US, unfortunately. I'd like to see it a become a civil liberty issue that all sides can agree on. But the vast majority of Europeans and American so-called-progressives (otherwise known as socialists) I've encountered don't think this way, despite their rhetoric about protecting individual liberties. They seem to think that people don't need guns because the nanny state is there to take care of them. I disagree. I don't trust the government, and I certainly don't trust the government to protect me from street predators. I can do that on my own, thank you very much, as long as the gov doesn't take away the tools I need to do so.

I don't align myself with either left or right. As I said, I consider the left-right binary to be crap. It mostly appeals to people incapable of thinking for themselves. I prefer to come to my own conclusions.
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 10:40:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DesertBear2', 'N')o. It's nanny state, nanny state you must take care of me. And make good all of the bad decisions I have made in my life by raising taxes on everybody but me.


Yes my favorite current example is: The federal government must pass laws to prevent me from wandering off into the mountains and freezing to death.

The nanny government is an artifact of liberalism which is a particular brand of centrist leftism. While liberalism certainly plays a role in the US, it totaly dominates in European politics.

Anarchists and libertarians major point of disagreement is personal property. Anarchists feel that one of the major onorous roles of the state is to support grossly uneven distributions of personal property, and that it's ok if the state goes away and things like Bill Gates estate are ceased by the unwashed masses for their own use. Libertarians, are pretty happy with the wealth distribution and want to maintain some sort of governmental force to prevent redistributions.
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby gego » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 11:37:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '
')
Anarchists and libertarians major point of disagreement is personal property. Anarchists feel that one of the major onorous roles of the state is to support grossly uneven distributions of personal property, and that it's ok if the state goes away and things like Bill Gates estate are ceased by the unwashed masses for their own use. Libertarians, are pretty happy with the wealth distribution and want to maintain some sort of governmental force to prevent redistributions.


I think you misunderstand Libertarians. Libertarians want the distribution of wealth that the free market produces. Free markets will produce a normal distribution of wealth (bell curve). Government interference in markets produces a maldistribution of wealth so that it is concentrated in the hands of those in power. The problem many people have is that they look at the present maldistribution of wealth and think it came from free markets; it came from markets rigged by the government, not from free markets.

What hacks me off is that the left wing does not believe in freedom any more than the right wing. Both believe in government control of lives; it is just which part of life they mostly focus on for control. TJ is a libertarian, not a right winger. I don't know about the other contestant.

What I do know is that this attitude that the left is morally superior to the right is offensive. Both wings live in a moral cesspool.
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 11:52:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', ' ')Free markets will produce a normal distribution of wealth (bell curve).
there probably was never a freer market system than in 19th America. That led to Robber Barons and extreme disparities of wealth.
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby Lokutus » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 11:58:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', ' ')Free markets will produce a normal distribution of wealth (bell curve).
there probably was never a freer market system than in 19th America. That led to Robber Barons and extreme disparities of wealth.


Bingo!

Gego should read Josephson's classic The Robber Barons to find out about this era. He'll be in for a shock.
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby Lokutus » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 12:05:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', ' ')Free markets will produce a normal distribution of wealth (bell curve).


You need to understand the basic physics of finance. The movement is always towards concentration of capital in fewer and fewer hands over time. Why? Well because once you have accumulated a certain amount of capital (i.e., a critical mass, if you will) it starts to become easier to accumulate more and more. It really is a zero sum game.
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby Lokutus » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 12:11:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', ' ')
What I do know is that this attitude that the left is morally superior to the right is offensive. Both wings live in a moral cesspool.


Curious comment this.

Can you enlighten us as to why you are the exception? What keeps you out of the "moral cesspools"?
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby gego » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 12:35:24

Again, you are proving my point that you blame the free market, when in fact the Robber Barons were mostly the result of government interference in the free market or failure to prosecute outright fraud. Try this view of robber barons as opposed to yours.

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0603d.asp

I know you guys have a collectivist mindset that affects your perception of the world, just as I have a individualist view that flavors mine. Given the evidence of history, I suggest that it is you who are failing to perceive reality.

The problem I have with you is that you want to run my life, and I want to run it, but not run yours. I would gladly do away with 95% of the present government, but you incessantly insist on more government and more control. And again, you seem to think you are taking the high road with your condemnation of the right wing, such as the implication of this thread, never understanding you are no better.
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby Lokutus » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 12:47:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', ' ')

The problem I have with you is that you want to run my life, and I want to run it, but not run yours. I would gladly do away with 95% of the present government, but you incessantly insist on more government and more control. And again, you seem to think you are taking the high road with your condemnation of the right wing, such as the implication of this thread, never understanding you are no better.


LOL! You need to put down the bong, son.

I have asolutely no faith in government whatsoever. It's always co-opted by big business over time.

As I stated above you seem oblivious to the physics of finance. Capital concentrattion is always the result.
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby firestarter » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 12:53:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', '
')
The problem I have with you is that you want to run my life, and I want to run it, but not run yours. .



Other than their Marxist spokesman, the Black Panthers were largely of the exact same ethos as yourself (and myself) regarding self determination and the abolition of the state (not to be confused with the abolition of government). It's no wonder this attitude is despised with such vitriol. Neo liberals and most conservatives are merely birds of a different feather. I think Karl Hess said it best:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')Libertarianism is rejected by the modern left — which preaches individualism but practices collectivism. Capitalism is rejected by the modern right — which preaches enterprise but practices protectionism. The libertarian faith in the mind of men is rejected by religionists who have faith only in the sins of man. The libertarian insistence that men be free to spin cables of steel as well as dreams of smoke is rejected by hippies who adore nature but spurn creation (Hess was an atheist, by the way). The libertarian insistence that each man is a sovereign land of liberty, with his primary allegiance to himself, is rejected by patriots who sing of freedom but also shout of banners and boundaries. There is no operating movement in the world today that is based upon a libertarian philosophy. If there were, it would be in the anomalous position of using political power to abolish political power."
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby Lokutus » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 12:56:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', ' ')
What I do know is that this attitude that the left is morally superior to the right is offensive. Both wings live in a moral cesspool.


Curious comment this.

Can you enlighten us as to why you are the exception? What keeps you out of the "moral cesspools"?


I don't suppose that we will get an explanation here as to why you are so morally superior to the rest of us?

Is it because you own a copy of Atlas Shrugged?

Or is it simply that you are in that phase of life (<25) where you know everything and everyone else is wrong?
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby gego » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 13:00:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', '
')
You need to understand the basic physics of finance. The movement is always towards concentration of capital in fewer and fewer hands over time. Why? Well because once you have accumulated a certain amount of capital (i.e., a critical mass, if you will) it starts to become easier to accumulate more and more. It really is a zero sum game.


This is false.

A zero sum game assumes there is a limited amount of wealth to be distributed. In fact wealth is created/extracted by certain activities, and there are many instances of people achieving a large amount of wealth while also improving the lives of others, simply by making more new wealth available to himself and others.

The idea that reaching a critical amount of capital makes it easier to get more is not correct. There are countless examples of one generation in a family accumulating wealth only to have it lost by subsequent generations. If your position were correct, this would not happen. The reality is that it is just as difficult to retain wealth as it was to accumulate it, if not more difficult. Ever heard the expression "shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations"?

In a free market competition makes it difficult to keep wealth because someone is always trying to compete with you. It is again markets that are rigged by government intervention that result in maldistribution of wealth. Look at a southern plantation pre civil war. The population of that plantation had a maldistribution of wealth maintained by force of law. Without the government imposing that slave system, the slaves would have been free to leave and keep the fruits of their own labor. Compare the plantation maldistribution of wealth with the normal distribution of wealth in early America. Look at the income distribution in the typical banana republic where the rulers take all the wealth for themselves and their friends while leaving nothing for the masses.
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Re: Poll: PO.com's Most hard core right-winger?

Unread postby gego » Tue 09 Jan 2007, 13:18:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lokutus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', ' ')
What I do know is that this attitude that the left is morally superior to the right is offensive. Both wings live in a moral cesspool.


Curious comment this.

Can you enlighten us as to why you are the exception? What keeps you out of the "moral cesspools"?


If a man puts a gun to my head and takes my wallet, this is theft that everyone understands. If a gang of twenty thugs do the same thing, again everyone understands this is immoral theft. If the gang appoints itself as government or even if it is elected by the majority, this does not then change the nature or morality of putting the government gun to my head and taking the contents of my wallet.

You think it is ok to take my wealth for your collective purpose and fail to see the immorality in that. I oppose taxes. Were government organized for mutual self defense, and were it supported by voluntary contributions, then it would be moral. When it is organized to manage peoples' lives, take from one to give to another, grant privilege, force contributions to fund itself, then it is immoral and those who support it, demanding it function thusly are immoral also; this is the left and right.

As a libertarian I am neither left or right because I do not endorse or support any function of government other than mutual self defense paid for voluntarily.

So I do see you as immoral, and myself not. Additionally I see threads like this as hypocritical because they condemn using words like "hard core" and "extremest" to negatively reflect of one group while the ones doing the condemning are no better.
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