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Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Which of these groups would you willing accept in your neighborhood?

A group that believes in (and practices) chattel slavery.
2
No votes
A local branch of the Nazi party. Yes, they wear real jackboots.
15
No votes
A branch of Pol Pot believers. They want to kill the intellectuals - you included.
0
0%
A group that forces their 10 year old daughters into polygamous relationships with old men.
3
No votes
A group that believes in human sacrifice - of a few of their own children.
2
No votes
A group of religious fanatics planning mass suicide - including their own children.
14
No votes
 
Total votes : 36

Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Jack » Mon 25 Dec 2006, 20:56:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'O')f the choices listed, they all have some form where they demand that others conform to their ideals.


But Unknown - is there any culture, anywhere, any-when, that doesn't demand that others conform to some set of ideals?

Could one be Amish and ride about in a Ferrari? Sounds silly, doesn't it? But if one takes any group - any group at all - there are certain norms and standards. If one deviates too far, one will either be excluded or shunned.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Cynus » Tue 26 Dec 2006, 11:53:41

I think that the choices at the top of the poll are poor as well. You could have made the test a lot more difficult by using examples that would make the purported multiculturalist cringe. For example, Japan is an extremely sexist society. I doubt any self-described multiculturalists would want sexist cultures included in their list of acceptible cultures. The same goes for female genital mutilation practiced in Africa, or forcing women to wear the burka or headscarf in the middle east. And forget about historical cultures. Most of the cultural practices of the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, middle ages Europe, ante-bellum southern US, and just about any other historical society would be found abhorrent. Plus, most multiculturalists I know never cease to rail at the "souless homogenized suburbs" or rural redneck hicks. Just face it, so-called multiculturalism is really a early 21st century, western, urban, upper-middle class monoculturalism.
One of these now am I too, a fugitive from the gods and a wanderer, at the mercy of raging Strife.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby JustinFrankl » Tue 26 Dec 2006, 13:16:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', 'I') don't see how any of the groups listed qualify as a culture.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ulture has been called "the way of life for an entire society." As such, it includes codes of manners, dress, language, religion, rituals, norms of behavior such as law and morality, and systems of belief.[2]


Well, about "society" ...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 's')ociety: an extended social group having a distinctive cultural and economic organization - Princeton Web Dictionary

Just how many are there in an "extended social group"? When a Native American tribe numbered in the hundreds was it not a society? Was it not still a society after receiving inflected blankets from European settlers, and their numbers fell to the dozens? When there were only ten members left, not still a society?

There's certainly no argument that any of these groups have a "distinctive" (albeit distasteful) cultural and economic organization.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', 'I')ts a stretch to say that any of the groups listed reflect the norm of any society living today, they may represent some weirdos, but they certainly don't reflect the norm for the 21st Century when it is studied in the 22nd Century.

These groups reflect the norms of their societies, not your norms, and vice-versa.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', 'I')t would be proper to ask how many people would live in a Japanese, Chinese etc neighborhood, etc., but these are all groups that believe in some form of violence and lawlessness and don't qualify as a culture.

I would not classify all these groups as being "violent" and "lawless". Wanting to kill the intellectuals, members of another group outside their own, ok, that would be violence and lawlessness (and completely human, but that's another argument) and yes there does exist protection against that. But what about the groups who are only doing unto their own? As for what offensive things they might be doing ... if you don't understand how their customs, behaviors, and actions fit into their culture as a whole, then changing them piecemeal is likely to cause more overall problems.

Unfortunately, people are curious little monkeys and like to fuck with things, and this is just another mark in the Against Multiculturalism column.

Also, there is an enabling factor behind trying to change the norms and customs of another group. That factor is that you have the energy to do so, the energy to enforce your will upon others.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'O')f the choices listed, they all have some form where they demand that others conform to their ideals.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'B')ut Unknown - is there any culture, anywhere, any-when, that doesn't demand that others conform to some set of ideals?

Are you talking about making its own members conform? Or an imperialistic enforcing of its norms on other cultures and other societies?

Within a culture, there is a low level of social conformity, which is engendered from the people themselves. For conforming to these "rules", no authority is needed, no laws are passed, no punishments are institutionalized. The "rules" are an inherent part of the ongoing socialization process, and people soon learn that if they want the ongoing socialization from others they like, and others they are dependent upon, people will follow these little rules.

I guess the next level up would be enforced conformity, which would require more resources and more energy. Systemic enforcement requires systemic resources, and police, lawyers, jailors, judges, bailiffs, bounty hunters, and process servers. And this systemic expenditure of energy toward "law and order", instead of solving the problem, has led to development of another system, "organized crime". Both systems actively work against each other and both have histories stretching back millennia.

The next level up would probably be imperialism. Can't think of any modern examples of that, though. :roll:

Any "demands" that one culture might place upon another are meaningless without the energy to enforce those demands. The more cheap energy one has available, the more enforceable demands one can make.

A problem with multiculturalism is that a thing tends to be best defined, the most vibrant, and at the highest potential energy when it is in the presence of its opposite. Multiculturalism is a soup of random opposites, with potentially explosive interactions happening on a continual basis. In contrast to soup, however, multiculturalism requires extra energy to prevent overheating.
"We have seen the enemy, and he is us." -- Walt Kelly
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby TheTurtle » Tue 26 Dec 2006, 13:32:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'L')ove is the only possible way forward for the human race. Miss that train and you are out of luck.


I could not agree with you more, Elijah. It was hatred (and the associated fear, greed, etc.) that got us into the mess we're in today.
More of the same will only lead to more of the same. :cry:

It's time for a new paradigm (or is it just a return to an older one?).

People can call it naive if they wish, but I see it as the key to thriving in the days to come.
“Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves.” (Ted Perry)
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Cynus » Tue 26 Dec 2006, 13:40:34

Of course many cultures don't emphasize love the way others do. I assume they are all excluded from your plans for the emerging homogenized monoculture?
One of these now am I too, a fugitive from the gods and a wanderer, at the mercy of raging Strife.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Tue 26 Dec 2006, 16:09:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'R')ule of the Law decided by a majority?

Majority thinks it is okay to gas millions?

What kind of ignorant drivel is this?


That's rich especially coming from you.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')re you claiming the majority of German folk knew the Jews were being gassed?
And of course the German folk would then have known about the fags and the gypsy who gyps ya too, being gassed?


I wasn't saying anything of the sort, you... as usual... are twisting words to suit your own narrow agenda to "safe" ground so you can go off on a rant.

Most of the world knew they were being persecuted and even my sainted Canada refused boat loads of people fleeing. Its been a source of shame in this country and is the main reason behind why we now have very lax rules for accepting people who claim refugee status.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')bu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay and the unnamed bases holding unnamed men...however this time these places called nowhere are not filled with the Jewish tribe.
Imagine the outrage ... blah blah blah


There has been outrage, even here in North America, it just doesn't make the news, so just cause you don't see it doesn't mean its not there. Do you have any idea how many people protested the invasion? 100's of thousands of people took to the streets.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he US, her apparent gross poor treatment of people and their rights as human beings, not respecting, essentially doing an end run around the Geneva Conventions suggests to ewe what?
Fair Play?


See, just ranting here buddy. Totally off topic but within your comfort zone again eh?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou live in an illusion called the USA is what I suggest. It is a corrupt bubble, soon it will burst, but there will of course be a reverberating tidal wave in all directions.
The Fall of an Empire is never pretty.

blah, blah, blah... I don't live in the US and actually feel for them considering you are always ranting on about how evil they are... you know some mystic paths actually cause insanity if you aren't too grounded in reality in the first place eh? MIgHt want to see to that.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Jack » Tue 26 Dec 2006, 21:25:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Cynus', 'I') think that the choices at the top of the poll are poor as well. You could have made the test a lot more difficult by using examples that would make the purported multiculturalist cringe.


While your points are well taken, please keep in mind that I wanted simple, obvious examples. The details of Japanese society might not be easily condensed into a poll question.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Jack » Tue 26 Dec 2006, 21:33:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'I')'ve seen just how filled with hate are some of the hearts that stalk these forums. Love is the only possible way forward for the human race.


How, exactly, does love - or hate - affect anything? I suspect that we are much too limited to do anything meaningful with hate or love toward the human species.

Rather, it might be better if people tried something truly novel - thinking and acting rationally. Of course, there's little danger of that happening. 8)
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby entropyfails » Wed 27 Dec 2006, 22:58:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'H')ow, exactly, does love - or hate - affect anything? I suspect that we are much too limited to do anything meaningful with hate or love toward the human species.


Except cause all of these "irrational emotional ideas" that you claim causes all the problems! *grin*

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'R')ather, it might be better if people tried something truly novel - thinking and acting rationally. Of course, there's little danger of that happening. 8)


I've heard this argument before. I remember that people have always claimed that the people BEFORE them were irrational. And they always claim that the upcoming generation is irrational as well. To the people in charge, THEY are the only rational people in history. I think it is a lie they tell themselves to sleep better at night.

You claim that this is because the current generation is irrational and hence ALL generations are irrational. Perhaps, but I feel that we could negate that argument and come up with a better representation of how reality works. ALL of the generations HAVE BEEN rational. And thus rationality is the problem itself.

As long as an individual rational self serves as the foundation of our human experience, then the world we see around us will reflect the characteristics of this method of thinking. The rational self coordinates all actions in defense of the continuity of the pleasurable rational self experience. It only moves in the direction of greatest pleasure, but it will endure pain to get there. Put simply, we all are pleasure addicts.

Now obviously, this is not a revelation to you Jack, but if you take a moment perhaps you can work out why the consequences contradict you point. I submit that all of our human behavior comes from rational decisions to continue pleasurable experience.

Why build suburbia? To have a pleasure filled, relaxing existence.

Why control the oil flows? To continue suburbia, to continue the pleasure.

Why blow yourself up in a Jihad bombing? To escape the painful reality of living with the painful consequences of living near pleasure addicts. This act will place you into endlessly pleasurable existence, which is everyone's only goal anyway.

For some reason, we feel this is what the animals do with their brains, but I believe this to be a fallacy shown by the different behaviors of humans and animals with respect to their environment. This demand for continued pleasurable experience can only arise at a certain level of intelligence. From there, it can spread by passing it along to the young via physical or emotional manipulation. This uniquely human enterprise causes all of our conflicts with the world.

So to conclude, making everyone "more rational" will not accomplish a single thing. To affect any real change, you have to directly change the way we humans experience and cope with reality on a non-rational level. Teaching rationality seems like a goal you can accomplish. The thing I'm talking about?!?! Forget about it! *grin*

Hoping this leaves you more hopeless than before,
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby eric_b » Thu 28 Dec 2006, 19:04:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', '
')I think believing that people are evil is an evil in itself. I am not directing this at you but there are many people here whose view of humans is so negative that it borders on outright hatred of your own species. I've been there (or close to it), but I came to a point where I realized that I am not much different than most people. Are we misfits? You bet. Are we evil? Not a chance. (...)


There was a time, when I was younger, that I felt the same way you do. Experience has not been a pleasant teacher. At this point I feel part of what it is to be human is to have an even mix of good and evil, at least for most people (yin/yang, whatever).

The question of 'Evil' is an interesting one. Many peoples actions are evil, even if they are not conscious of it. Would you consider the act of driving a car evil, especially if you know the larger consequences? How about eating factory farmed meat, knowing the animals likely suffered greatly?

What you need to understand is there are people that are consciously evil. They're evil, they know it, they enjoy it. You're very naive if you think otherwise. Schadenfreude is.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby eric_b » Thu 28 Dec 2006, 19:08:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '
')
How, exactly, does love - or hate - affect anything? I suspect that we are much too limited to do anything meaningful with hate or love toward the human species.

Rather, it might be better if people tried something truly novel - thinking and acting rationally. Of course, there's little danger of that happening. 8)


?? love, hate, and other powerful emotions are relevant because, as you say, rational thinking is not common.

Most people are guided, for better or for worse, by their emotions, and not their intellect. And you know it.

Look at the cause of so many wars.. the cause often amounts to little more than hate.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby holmes » Thu 28 Dec 2006, 20:08:50

There is a mental disorder associated with MC thats for sure. I feel safer with Nazi scum around me just becuase they are weak and in lower numbers than the mass brigade of self loathers. However they are getting culled out of the gene pool by the ones they "love". In reality Multi mutants are racist hate mongerers. Its easy to see if you have half of a rational logical brain. Sheesh even I can pick that out! : -O But its really an oil induced stupor they are in. Oil is a wonderful insulator of reality.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 28 Dec 2006, 22:02:20

The "rational" response is to deal with people as they are - irrational - rather than as we want them - rational. No matter how much we want it with all our hearts and minds, we will never be able to make humans into something they are not. Sure it might be "better" if people behaved rationally, but it is irrational to expect them to do so.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Jack » Thu 28 Dec 2006, 23:45:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('entropyfails', 'N')ow obviously, this is not a revelation to you Jack, but if you take a moment perhaps you can work out why the consequences contradict you point. I submit that all of our human behavior comes from rational decisions to continue pleasurable experience.


From the perspective of short term gains (i.e, a greedy algorithm), yes. I agree completely. That said, my focus was more oriented to the long term.

Your answer causes me to recall the classic theory of criminal justice that assumes that criminals are, in aggregate, rational. Thus, crime varies with two variables - the chance of getting caught, and the likely severity of punishment.

But as I said, your point is well taken. Thank you for your thoughts.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Jack » Fri 29 Dec 2006, 00:06:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'T')he whole thread is basically a big fishing expedition, trolling for those who want to debate multiculturism.


That wasn't the intent. Rather, the idea was to ask a pointed question - do people truly understand and embrace multiculturalism. To a great extent, I have concluded they do not.

Now you make the point that there is no such thing as a true monoculture (except, perhaps, a hermit!), and that, arguably, there are limits to the variance permitted by multiculturalism. Fair enough - but to apply rigor, we would need to define what culture is, then extract some sort of statistics regarding norms and variances. Frankly, that sounds like a daunting prospect.

I suppose one could invest a few hours searching an academic library's database of research projects - Proquest, perhaps - and find some papers on the subject...but, really, that seems like far more work than I'm willing to invest in the subject.
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