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Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Which of these groups would you willing accept in your neighborhood?

A group that believes in (and practices) chattel slavery.
2
No votes
A local branch of the Nazi party. Yes, they wear real jackboots.
15
No votes
A branch of Pol Pot believers. They want to kill the intellectuals - you included.
0
0%
A group that forces their 10 year old daughters into polygamous relationships with old men.
3
No votes
A group that believes in human sacrifice - of a few of their own children.
2
No votes
A group of religious fanatics planning mass suicide - including their own children.
14
No votes
 
Total votes : 36

Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 05:11:54

I guess then that I am non-multicultural. My own personal beliefs use a standard that says you can do anything you want with your own life (including end it) but that you have no right to control or dominate or eliminate anothers life.

All of the groups you list above (including the Nazi's, cause face it they have their own agenda to inflict their wuills on others ) are about controlling and dominating others and subverting their right to choose for their own lives.

Its all well and good to want to be tolerant and "multi-cultural, but as my grandma once said "if you don't stand for something; you'll fall for anything".
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby TheTurtle » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 09:21:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nwildmand', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', '
')I think you have to get it down to the area of respecting the rights of individuals within a healthy compromise we call society. Within that compromise there is room for alot of diversity, there is room also for many emotions, even hate. But hate that is acted out through discrimination or other types of crimes cannot be encouraged.


you dont actually believe that this can ever be accomplished do you?


But isn't it nicer to aspire to than aspiring to hate?
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Aaron » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 10:13:01

Hmmm...

1. Nazis
2. Pol Pot Morons

or

3. Some unnamed group that encourages murder, suicide & pedophilia.

Who could this mystery group be?
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Ingenuity_Gap » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 11:28:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'H')mmm...

1. Nazis
2. Pol Pot Morons

or

3. Some unnamed group that encourages murder, suicide & pedophilia.

Who could this mystery group be?


... Raising the hand. Comrade teacher, is it the jews? With their claws and teeth? And the horns?
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Ayame » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 14:25:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ingenuity_Gap', ' ')We should probably refrain from calling other cultures scum. They are "unusual". Not better or worse, just "distinctive".


What about a culture that sacrifices people by burning them in wickermen? Would that culture just be classified as 'different'?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', ' ')In nature once a mammal has their period they are ready for sex.


True but it's a little more difficult for humans. Quite a few child brides get incontenence (fistula) or death because they give birth before their bodies can handle it. Nature is a bitch sometimes. I think that it has something to do with sedantary lifestyles as the hunter gatherers females don't usually reach menarch until 17 or maybe it's just because they are undernorished and that delays menarch until later.

Personally with regards to multiculturism I think that a dominate culture can 'tolerate' other cultures to a certain extent as long as they make up a minority but when times get tough these minorty groups will quickly become scape-goats for the majority to take out their frustrations on. Thus is the human way.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Jack » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 14:47:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'I') see your point Jack, but all of your categories fall under the argument via hyperbole category. I think you have to get it down to the area of respecting the rights of individuals within a healthy compromise we call society.


But notice this means that cultural diversity is fine, within certain changeable limits - which is in accord with my original contention. Once, witchcraft was forbidden. Now, it is within the limits. On the other hand, once it was perfectly permissible to treat animals badly since they were regarded as property. Now, a growing body of law punishes such behavior severely. Note that I am not saying which is right or wrong, nor which might be good or bad - I merely point out that phrases such as embracing multiculturalism or celebrating diversity are poorly defined and (in my opinion) lack intellectual rigor.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'B')ut hate that is acted out through discrimination or other types of crimes cannot be encouraged. All of the groups you mentioned have a hate based ideology, or have allowed hatred to affect their interpretation of their religion.

The choice is simple, love or hate; live, be sustained, be nourished, or die, be denuded, be starved.


Well, first of all - some kinds of discrimination have always been allowed, and most still are. There are published studies of wage disparities between tall and short people, between fat and lean people. One cannot explicitly say that they will not hire someone because the person worships the snail god (whatever that might be); but they can choose a "better qualified candidate" who just happens to be younger, leaner, and appears to be "our kind of people".

And there's another problem. You say the groups are all about hate; but in truth, the practical difference between love and hate is small. Did the typical National Socialist act out of hate? Or out of love for the folk (see Hitler's Mien Kampf on this point). You can extend this to other groups as well.

You mention that love lasts forever - but if we love something or someone, can we abide that which threatens the object of our affection? What, then, drives our reactions?
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Jack » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 14:52:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'H')mmm...

1. Nazis
2. Pol Pot Morons

or

3. Some unnamed group that encourages murder, suicide & pedophilia.

Who could this mystery group be?


A group that believes in (and practices) chattel slavery. --> Most of the world before 1750 or so.

A local branch of the Nazi party. Yes, they wear real jackboots. --> Obvious.

A branch of Pol Pot believers. They want to kill the intellectuals - you included. --> Obvious.

A group that forces their 10 year old daughters into polygamous relationships with old men. --> Certain extreme offshoots of Mormonism.

A group that believes in human sacrifice - of a few of their own children. --> Old-style Aztecs.

A group of religious fanatics planning mass suicide - including their own children. --> Jim Jones group in Guyana.

Sometimes, Aaron, a cigar is just a cigar. 8)
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Jack » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 15:00:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', 'I')f you don't like what someone does but it still falls within the law and the realm of civil liberties why come out and start being a dweeb about it?


Yes, ElijahJones - but what determines the law? What drives policy? What foundation are civil liberties based upon?

That's the central point.

Should a thief be given 90 days in the slammer? Or counseling? Or 50 strokes of the cane? Or should their right hand be removed in chop-chop square? Notice that each of these could be enabled with the right legislation. The law would be fully complied with.

As with the law, so too with civil liberties. I've no doubt others can supply ample examples.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Aaron » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 15:26:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ometimes, Aaron, a cigar is just a cigar.


Ergo, some of the time, it's a big, brown penis.

I can only think of one culture that exists today which groups all those characteristics... (save Nazi's & POTers)
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby seahorse » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 18:03:03

I don't see how any of the groups listed qualify as a culture.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ulture has been called "the way of life for an entire society." As such, it includes codes of manners, dress, language, religion, rituals, norms of behavior such as law and morality, and systems of belief.[2]


Its a stretch to say that any of the groups listed reflect the norm of any society living today, they may represent some weirdos, but they certainly don't reflect the norm for the 21st Century when it is studied in the 22nd Century.

It would be proper to ask how many people would live in a Japanese, Chinese etc neighborhood, etc., but these are all groups that believe in some form of violence and lawlessness and don't qualify as a culture.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 19:07:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') don't take multicultural as meaning you are forced to embrace others lifestyles or choices. But I think it is more like not going out of your way to bash other cultures. If you don't like what someone does but it still falls within the law and the realm of civil liberties why come out and start being a dweeb about it? Should they do the same to us.


Of the choices listed, they all have some form where they demand that others conform to their ideals. Nazi's think anyone who isn't aryan (or close to it) should be exterminated or forced into slavery as they are sub-human. Even a group that thinks that 10 and 12 year old girls shoiuld be given to fat old men is still inflicting their ideas onto the 10 and 12 year old girls.

The rule of law is decided by the majority of a culture and thus if the majority think its ok to gas millions of people cause they are different or gay or whatever then we are lucky that there is a global majority that occaisionally thinks its not ok.

I don't live in the US and think its lucky that even though the majority of Americans thought it was ok to go into Iraq that there is a larger global community to keep their corporate greed to a hideable minimum. God only knows what they'd be gdoing over there if there wasn't the need to at least make it look like they are there as a liberating force (which they were... Sadam was a nasty bastard who had gotten out of control).

In modern times we have gotten to a stalemate where corrupt countries compete and keep other corrupt countries from going, if not too far, then totally out of control.

I love these socialogical ideas that we can be multi-cultural or provide for the poor when that is just a false veneer touted by left-wingers that everyone knows is totallyy dependant upon the corporate agenda. Look at Somali for proof. FAr too little way to f**** late and give up when the last dollar or "good will" value has been rung from it.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby TheTurtle » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 19:09:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', '
')It would be proper to ask how many people would live in a Japanese, Chinese etc neighborhood, etc., but these are all groups that believe in some form of violence and lawlessness and don't qualify as a culture.


Precisely. These groups listed in Jack's poll don't constitute cultures so much as deviation from culture (in other words, what I tersely called "scum").

But it's Jack's poll, so I figure he can define things however he wishes.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby eric_b » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 19:30:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ElijahJones', '
')
Well let me see. I respect others. My wife does. We are teaching our children to do so. We life in society in such a way that we build those who respect others. I mean yes, I know that it seems impossible from certain perspectives and there have been times in my life when I felt it was. But the fact that (most) people are capable means it is possible. The choice is ours. Besides which wisdom demands that adequate witness be given to the fact that true criminals commit crimes by choice not by compulsion so that when Justice is meted out they have no excuse. The human race has no excuse for tolerating hate. Of course it would take a long time to clarify, but maybe this one works "love does no wrong to it's neighbor." Since love acts this way it must find ways of solving problems that do not harm others, usually that means cooperation.


You're being hopelessly naive. The human race is bathed in hate. Look at history. How can you be so blind? Look, you can preach the love & tolerance line, but one look at our current condition, one glance at the ugly sweep of human history, should tell you it's completely phony. Hate motivates more people than love. Deal with it.

There are many people go through their entire day judging people. Discrimination lies very close to the root of the human condition. It's part of the strong human ego and the sense of separation that comes with it. I, me, mine... us vs. them.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 19:35:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ate motivates more people than love. Deal with it.


And fear motivates even more than hate. Fear of unknowns is one of the most motivating, hate inducing, and reasons for hurting others.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')here are many people go through their entire day judging people. Discrimination lies very close to the root of the human condition. It's part of the strong human ego and the sense of separation that comes with it. I, me, mine... us vs. them.


Its not just ego, its instinctive. People make judgements out of instinct on which person will make a better mate, who will protect them, or kill them. Very deep seated stuff.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby eric_b » Sat 23 Dec 2006, 19:52:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ate motivates more people than love. Deal with it.


And fear motivates even more than hate. Fear of unknowns is one of the most motivating, hate inducing, and reasons for hurting others.


Yes. Fear and hate are very close to each other on the emotional spectrum, IMO.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Its not just ego, its instinctive. People make judgements out of instinct on which person will make a better mate, who will protect them, or kill them. Very deep seated stuff.


Exactly what I meant, and exactly why little can be done about it. In the case of humanity the ego is so strong it's eclipsed the other, older, forms of knowing, which would tend to temper it. Doomed by design.
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Re: Multiculturalism Poll: Let's try a little experiment

Unread postby Jack » Mon 25 Dec 2006, 20:50:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', 'I') cannot say I like the choice of potential neighbors you are presenting me with Jack and you did leave out one possible choice that has me trembling ... I would get even with them for making me move ... I would sell my place to a loud, angry, belligerent American...quite a few down in Texass...remind me, who was your governor again?

namaste

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Of course you don't like the list - that's the idea.

People talk about embracing diversity and multiculturalism, but they delude themselves. When the prospective group offends them in one way or another - for example, by being loud, angry, and belligerent - they reject the other culture.

Note that the Texan behavior pattern is, in fact, a culture. One embraced by the members, in many cases - and one rejected by quite a few others.
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