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Is your data being mined by the gov?

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Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby firestarter » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 18:36:04

Over at LATOC, this link was provided which gives one information on how to determine if their data is being mined by the NSA when visiting certain sites on the internet. If the tracer comes up with an sffca.ip.att.net. or att.net entry then your data is likely being collected. Are you being bugged?
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby SchroedingersCat » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 18:53:43

This is extremely unlikely. Internet traffic goes through routers. Every router has an IP address. Most of them also have a host name associated with that ip address. They often look something like this:

gi1-2.dr1.dg1.sandiego.abac.net

Network admin's have an easier time remembering a meaningful router name than an IP address.

I doubt very much that the network capturing the NSA is/was doing would be so easily detected. Chances are they put a splitter on a fiber optic cable and you would never know they could see the traffic.
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby firestarter » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 19:18:43

Type in Peakoil.com and do your own test---especially regulars around here. Then go to Sesamestreet.com and see what happens. Betcha some of the regulars around here will hit paydirt :razz: when coming to places like this, and strikeout when going to Barney.com, etc.
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby seldom_seen » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 19:31:12

There's no way to determine if there's a packet sniffer between you and and the destination host with a traceroute.

So theoretically, the NSA/KGB/CIA/Mossad/Illuminati/FreeMasons/Elks Club/Rotary Club and The Boys & Girls Club could all be sniffing your traffic if the ISP carrying your traffic allowed them to install a sniffer.

That's why we have encrypted protocols for sensitive data: PGP/SSH/IPSec/SSL et cetera...
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby firestarter » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 19:56:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', 'T')here's no way to determine if there's a packet sniffer between you and and the destination host with a traceroute.




Not according to this expert's testimony:

Court documents pdf
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby seldom_seen » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 20:17:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'N')ot according to this expert's testimony

That's a 40 page PDF...can you quote something of relevance?

I've worked with packet sniffers and internet routing for about the last 9 years, so I do have more than a cursory understanding of the subject matter.
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby Grimnir » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 20:24:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'I')f the tracer comes up with...att.net entry then your data is likely being collected.


That's a fairly silly thing for them to say. AT&T owns a large portion of the lines and routers that make up the Internet; the fact that they show up somewhere in the middle of a traceroute means nothing; it certainly doesn't mean you've been singled out.

Anyone else notice that traceroutes to whitehouse.gov go through a FEMA router?
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby seldom_seen » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 20:30:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Grimnir', 't')he fact that they show up in a traceroute means nothing.

Exactly. It has no relevance to whether your data is being watched or not.

This PDF is rather alarming though. It sounds like ATT has quite an elaborate network of sniffers and traffic monitoring.
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby firestarter » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 20:31:36

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'N')ot according to this expert's testimony

That's a 40 page PDF...can you quote something of relevance?

I've worked with packet sniffers and internet routing for about the last 9 years, so I do have more than a cursory understanding of the subject matter.



It was linked to the first article I posted, and the only reason I cited it is because the expert put his reputation on the line, under oath. He could be wrong, sure. I have no expertise in this area, but thought you did by your response, therefore I deduced you could peruse it to see if he's out in left field or not.

As an aside, I tried out a little experiment from my mom's computer at the newspaper she owns (it's a left of center paper) and when going to several, what I'd call alternative sites, the att.net shows up. From the same computer I type in literally barney.com among other so called harmless sites and receive no surveillance markers, for what that's worth.
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 20:36:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', 'T')here's no way to determine if there's a packet sniffer between you and and the destination host with a traceroute.


Not according to this expert's testimony:

Court documents pdf


(a) a packet sniffer is a read-only device. It does not alter the packets on the network.

(b) any data you put on the internet is no longer "your data"

(c) use encryption of data you need to protect
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby seldom_seen » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 20:45:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'I')t was linked to the first article I posted, and the only reason I cited it is because the expert put his reputation on the line, under oath. He could be wrong, sure. I have no expertise in this area, but thought you did by your response, therefore I deduced you could peruse it to see if he's out in left field or not.

I just started skimming that document and it gave me the willies.
Thanks for linking it. I think I will print it out and read it on the way home. The guy testifying wrote the Addison Wesley book on designing wide area networks and was the chief network architect at BBN. So he knows his foo.
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 21:10:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', 'I') just started skimming that document and it gave me the willies.


Yes, I didn't know you could use a reference to wikipedia in a legal document. :)
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby seldom_seen » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 21:25:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '
')(a) a packet sniffer is a read-only device. It does not alter the packets on the network.

(b) any data you put on the internet is no longer "your data"

(c) use encryption of data you need to protect

(d) you can't probe for sniffers, so you never know if/when/where they are listening

(e) listen to roger and eat your wheaties
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby Daculling » Wed 20 Dec 2006, 21:50:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '
')(a) a packet sniffer is a read-only device. It does not alter the packets on the network.

(b) any data you put on the internet is no longer "your data"

(c) use encryption of data you need to protect

(d) you can't probe for sniffers, so you never know if/when/where they are listening

(e) listen to roger and eat your wheaties


(f) When standing in the town square deriding the government, expect notes to be taken.
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby NEOPO » Thu 21 Dec 2006, 00:09:03

[quote="seldom_seen"]

So theoretically, the NSA/KGB/CIA/Mossad/Illuminati/FreeMasons/Elks Club/Rotary Club and The Boys & Girls Club could all be sniffing your traffic if the ISP carrying your traffic allowed them to install a sniffer.

quote]

Aha! so you admit that "they" exist!!! 8)
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby gego » Thu 21 Dec 2006, 07:12:37

I don't understand how the government would be able to read all the stuff that is written on the internet, or have an effective program that looked for key words. The volume each day must be fairly large.

I am not savvy about what they can learn about me from my emails, the web sites I visit or the my posts on various discussion groups. It seems they would need to first make some sort of arrangement with my service provider. Everytime I log on, I get a different address assigned to me, so without help from my service provider how would they know anything other than the current ip address I am using for that log on. Maybe my emails they could somehow intercept since they have my return email address on them.

It seems to me the more they spy, if they can do so effectively, the more people they need to have to check the content of what they have gathered. I think maybe this spying stuff is like the IRS bluff where they every tax season have some high profile indictment of someone for tax crimes, but they just do not have the staff to much more than a relatively few investigations. Maybe they just spy on people like Princess Dianna or some vocal anti-government types who deliberately get in the news.

I don't really know, but if your name is not Mohammad then I doubt that you get any attention.

But just for a laugh go here for a parody on data mining:
http://www.aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Thu 21 Dec 2006, 14:47:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', 'I') don't understand how the government would be able to read all the stuff that is written on the internet, or have an effective program that looked for key words. The volume each day must be fairly large.


Here's an example of how you can mine data:

Data mining 101

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', 'I') am not savvy about what they can learn about me from my emails, the web sites I visit or the my posts on various discussion groups.


A lot, actually. Look back at your posting history *just* on this forum.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', 'I')t seems they would need to first make some sort of arrangement with my service provider.


Let me introduce you to CARNIVORE

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', 'E')verytime I log on, I get a different address assigned to me, so without help from my service provider how would they know anything other than the current ip address I am using for that log on. Maybe my emails they could somehow intercept since they have my return email address on them.


When you visit a website, you reveal a lot more information than just your IP address. The biggest one is probably the MAC address of your ethernet card or router. Sometime they can be changed, but this is beyond the capability of the average user. Other times they are hard-wired. It would be a simple task for your ISP to match up their records against your MAC address. And as I pointed out, they already have the cooperation of your ISP.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', 'I')t seems to me the more they spy, if they can do so effectively, the more people they need to have to check the content of what they have gathered. I think maybe this spying stuff is like the IRS bluff where they every tax season have some high profile indictment of someone for tax crimes, but they just do not have the staff to much more than a relatively few investigations. Maybe they just spy on people like Princess Dianna or some vocal anti-government types who deliberately get in the news.

I don't really know, but if your name is not Mohammad then I doubt that you get any attention.

That kind of underestimation is exactly what they are counting on. Most of this syping can be carried out automatically, with off-the-shelf equipment.

Here's an example:

Let's say I am a gardening enthusiast. If I am talking about fertilizer on a gardening forum, it's no big deal. But if I mention it in another place (let's say here for example), it might seem out of place.

Suddenly, one of those silent "not used without a warrent" CARNIVORE sniffers picks up a keyword as it passes through PO.com's ISP's network. The machine flags my MAC address and my ISP's DNS info for detailed intercept and monitoring. It forwards my information to it's counterpart at my ISP.

Now, every word I say is being closely scrutinized by data mining software.

Now if it ends there, I'm probably alright. But if I do something crazy, like try to buy a Mercades 300-D, CARNIVORE might generate a false positive. Now, not only is all of my data being closely monitored, I have also been forwarded to DHS's watch list as a potential terrorist. Think about it: A guy from Canada, who's interested in tropical plant fertilizer and diesel cars, who visits PO.com regularly. It doesn't look good.

Now they are pulling my bank records, my Amazon.com wishlist, my credit history, criminal record, known associations, the works.

Remember, there has been no human intervention up to this point, and I'm already on a no-fly list. If my background check turns up anything remotely subversive, I might end up being elevated to the level of "conduct surveillence". Of course, at this point a live person conducting surveillence would realize I was a false positive and carry on with more important things. Theoretically. With the way things are going nowadays, every problem looks like a nail. If the agent is having a bad day, I could very well find myself in a secret prison.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby seldom_seen » Thu 21 Dec 2006, 15:50:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', 'I') don't understand how the government would be able to read all the stuff that is written on the internet, or have an effective program that looked for key words. The volume each day must be fairly large.

The volume of data going over a backbone like ATT is large, but it is technically quite easy to monitor this traffic looking for specific data or 'signatures.'

Think of the interstate highway system. There's no way you could monitor all the traffic all the time, everywhere. However, if you post monitors at major thoroughfares and intersections you can see a lot of traffic.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') am not savvy about what they can learn about me from my emails, the web sites I visit or the my posts on various discussion groups.

If your traffic is unencrypted they can easily snatch all of your emails right out of thin air. In fact you and I could easily do this as well with publicly available tools.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t seems they would need to first make some sort of arrangement with my service provider.

Correct. That's exactly what this ATT case is all about.

Remember that your data not only travels over your ISP, but many other ISPs, especially the big ones that make up the 'backbone' of the Internet. Sprint, UUnet, ATT for instance carry a large percentage of all Internet traffic.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')verytime I log on, I get a different address assigned to me, so without help from my service provider how would they know anything other than the current ip address I am using for that log on.

If "they" are unable to determine exactly who you are by sniffing your data. A little help from your ISP may be needed to determine exactly what user was using the IP in question.
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby gego » Thu 21 Dec 2006, 15:56:58

Dreamtwister,

That is eye opening; thanks, I guess.

Maybe time for me to limit my internet use to the absolute minimum.

Boy is my wife going to be pissed; we have a DSL connection with a router and each have our own computer. I think the phone bill comes in her name, so I guess they will be carting her off to the secret prisons.

If anyone asks, it was she making all these posts on peakoil.com.
Last edited by gego on Thu 21 Dec 2006, 16:15:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is your data being mined by the gov?

Unread postby seldom_seen » Thu 21 Dec 2006, 16:00:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dreamtwister', 'W')hen you visit a website, you reveal a lot more information than just your IP address. The biggest one is probably the MAC address of your ethernet card or router.

That's incorrect. The MAC address is only used on a local lan segment. The websites you visit have no idea what the MAC address of your NIC or router is.
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