[rockdoc123]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ell since the only things Quebec seem to contribute to Canada are constant whining and corrupt politicians,

[Dreamtwister]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', 'h')old on now....how about tarte sucre?, tortierre? or some of the great Quebecois micro-brewery offerings like Maudite and Fin du Monde? That's got to count for something?

[Revi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rockdoc123', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ell since the only things Quebec seem to contribute to Canada are constant whining and corrupt politicians,

[MrBill]

In many ways, N. America should have been divided East-West rather than North-South.

There are several questions to be asked about Quebec Separation.

Do they have a right to secede from the Union with their existing borders in tact? I would argue that they should only be allowed to leave the Dominion with the same borders that they joined the Confederation with. Not the Quebec we see on the map today that includes large areas in the north of the Province where mainly Native Indians live and not French speaking Quebecois. Alternatively, only those areas of Quebec that vote in favor of separation should be allowed to secede. Quebec of course does not want this because that is where their hydro is produced.

Secondly, who should pay for seccession? Certainly, not the Canadian taxpayers that have been pouring money into Quebec all these years in the name of equalization payments and Canadian unity.

Thirdly, should Quebecers who stay in that Province be allowed to keep their Canadian passport or have dual citizenship if they vote to secede? If Quebec as an independent country is unsuccesful, what would stop those with a Canadian passport or dual citizenship from demanding Canadian benefits like medical care and pensions? Moving into the Eastern Ontario townships and then demanding services in French? The whole mess again.

As far as I am concerned a divorce is a divorce a la Czechoslovakia, but I have zero faith that either the Canadian government or its courts will be as hardline in enforcing a real separation, if it comes to that, where Canadian taxpayers do not keep paying the bills for an independent Quebec long after it leaves Confederation.

Those are some issues. Another point raised was Manitoba joining Ontario? I do not think so. Already there is a movement, small but growing, for areas in western Ontario in the Lake District to secede from Ontario to join the Province of Manitoba. Quite simply they are a lot closer to Winnipeg than Queen's Park and Thunder Bay is an integral part of the Prairie economy.

I think from common bonds the Prairie Provinces have always belonged together. I think that in terms of size and scale an independent Alberta would rather have BC, Saskatchewan and Manitoba along for the ride. Alberta and BC have already signed their own free trade agreements for closer allignment of business interests. I personally think that once some retired Saskatchewan farmers finally pass away along with their social credit and cooperative roots that Saskatchewan will move a lot closer to fiscally conservative Alberta or risk being left behind as all their trained university graduates leave the Province for work in Alberta.

Northern Saskatchewan and Alberta share the same geography and geology. There is no reason why economic development has to end at Lloydminister. Saskatoon should be booming like Edmonton. But Regina has always been an unfriendly place to do business. I think the end of the CWB and development from the oilsands will convince younger Saskatchewan voters that they also need to adopt more business friendly policies, if only to help pay for retirement benefits and healthcare for all those retired farmers.

From a peak oil and resource depletion perspective the Provinces have it all. Water, gas, oil, coal, vast forests and agriculture. They have always been alienated from Central Canada just as the Maritimes have as well. That will never change under a representative democracy where Ontario and Quebec have more votes. However, if Quebec goes, and I sincerely hope not because I am a Canadian, too, that voting balance will tip dramatically. Especially as Alberta and BC grow in size while some other Provinces shrink in population.

I think that Alberta and the Prairie Provinces as well as BC are better off in Canada than they would be alone. However, if the Liberal make another grab for western resource wealth then I think the case for seccession is greater. When commodity prices were low, PET mocked Prairie farmers by giving them the finger and snearing, why should I help sell your grain for you? The NEP was an unmitigated disaster. Jobs in manufacturing always benefited central Canada not the west. I think there are a lot of legitimate complaints about alienation and a raw deal.

I note that Ontario MPPs just voted themselves a nice 25 percent raise. They and the voters of Ontario just do not get it. Alberta is prosperous today because of our oil & gas revenue, but the majority of that revenue flows into Federal coffers or is taxed away through regional transfers, while the foundation of 13-consecutive balanced budgets or surpluses lies in being fiscally conservative not relying on one time windfalls. Until Ontario and Quebec understand that message the regions will always be pulling away from the center.

I was trading FX in London during the last referendum in the mid-90s when the vote was very close. The volatility was high, but nothing like the meltdown of the ERM. Economic fundamentals are different today, and Canadian as well as many Provincial budgets are in surplus now instead of being in the red. Therefore, it is hard to speculate on what would happen to the Loonie should Quebec have a successful referendum to secede? However, I think we are talking about an initial 20 cent drop in value of the CAD followed by a correction of 5 to 10 cents. And then it would really depend on the terms of the divorce? Those details would only emerge weeks, months and years later.

[Doly]

My theory is that peak oil will encourage all sorts of separatist movements everywhere. Which means that Quebec will secede, eventually.

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'M')y theory is that peak oil will encourage all sorts of separatist movements everywhere. Which means that Quebec will secede, eventually.

[FoxV]

Quebec seperation would be a very interesting case study as I don't believe there has ever been an un-armed seperation of one state from another.

And as you say Mr. Bill, not only is the seperatist movement a shame, but it is also a good possiblility (and become more likely as TSHTF).

A very strange demographic situtation is developing in Quebec. They are importing a huge amount of non-english immigrants. You would think that this would spell the death knell for seperatism, but on the contrary its becoming a big boost.

Most of the people coming in are middle-eastern Muslims. This particular population has been pre-conditioned to follow public leaders. They are quick to rally behind the seperatists leaders, even though they would be they first ones exiled from the very elitist french white catholic culture of Quebec.

The end result of this is that after seperation, all these immigrants (quickly moving to become a majority in Montreal and Hull) would probably succeeded from Quebec and join Ontario

This would remove 75% of the population of Quebec and almost all of its industrial base. It would also open Pandora's box for a lot of other seperations throughout North America.

[MOCKBA]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FoxV', 'Q')uebec seperation would be a very interesting case study as I don't believe there has ever been an un-armed seperation of one state from another.

[threadbear]

It's very important to note that the changing nature of Francophone sentiments against the rest of Canada have as much to do with our close relationship with the US, than our historic links with Britain.

I am 100% behind them and view the French in Canada as a buttress against complete absorption into the body politic of the US. I also view Harper's recent semantic brouhaha, regarding whether Quebec should be granted "separate nation within a larger nation" status as manipulative bullsh**.

The conservatives know they can't maintain power in Canada unless Quebec secedes, so the separate nation talk initiated by spoiled fat boy, Harper, is just the opening salvo. The conservatives and their minders in the US, would like nothing better than to see Quebec driven out of federation.

[MOCKBA]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', '
')I am 100% behind them and view the French in Canada as a buttress against complete absorption into the body politic of the US.

[FoxV]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('threadbear', 'T')he conservatives know they can't maintain power in Canada unless Quebec secedes, so the separate nation talk initiated by spoiled fat boy, Harper, is just the opening salvo. The conservatives and their minders in the US, would like nothing better than to see Quebec driven out of federation.

[MrBill]

Mockba wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') still cannot get over how anglofones totally do not know and even less understand what is happening (been happening) in Quebec. Come on, Quebec was put under British rule over 2 centuries ago - plenty of time to figure out that things work differently in Quebec... When reffering to "the very elitist french white catholic culture of Quebec" are you talking about this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2mSJj3sMW0 (those not familiar with recent Molson commercials should first watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqUde5i4KbI )

[FoxV]

I think its safe to say that all political parties have screwed up their respective countries. I think that's just part and parcel of our short term democratic systems. I just didn't realize the Conservatives had an embedded american bias.

ultimately I've come to realize that as long as the US stays intact, the merging of US and Canada is inevitable. A nation of 30M with vast surpluses and minimal army cannot survive next door to a nation of 300M with a vast army and minimal surpluses.

Our only chance to stay a distict country is if something like THAI lives up to its potential. With so much oil available from that process then enough deals can be struck with the rest of the world to keep our sovereignty.

Barring that (or a US breakup), we're pretty much screwed (the fact that Quebec thinks they can survive seperated from Canada I find laughable)

[MOCKBA]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')By the way, the biggest exodus was by the Jewish community. Of course, separatism will gain headway if more and more native English speakers leave the Province.

[MrBill]

TD Bank with large US operations backs Liberal Dion.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he invitations were sent on behalf of both Mr. McKenna and TD chief executive officer Ed Clark, a former high-ranking civil servant with strong Liberal ties.

TD is footing the bill for the Toronto luncheon, which will include both Liberal and Conservative backers on the guest list. It is not being billed as a fundraiser.

[FatherOfTwo]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', ' ')If you want to know my true opinion, I hate the left-leaning media in Canada more than the politicians.

But it is absolutely laughable to say we have a pro-US bias? Even in socially conservative Alberta, Prof. Morton scared too many voters with his lurch too far to the right and American ideas.

[keehah]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') actually like the (glaringly obvious) left leaning media in Canada. Save of course the national post and globe and mail.

[threadbear]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FatherOfTwo', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', ' ')If you want to know my true opinion, I hate the left-leaning media in Canada more than the politicians.

But it is absolutely laughable to say we have a pro-US bias? Even in socially conservative Alberta, Prof. Morton scared too many voters with his lurch too far to the right and American ideas.

[MrBill]

Since we are already way-off topic...

keehah wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')wo sentences that say it all IMO. I expect the Amero by 2010.

[MOCKBA]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MrBill', '
')Sure, at the moment, we are very dependent on the US for trade, but that is natural as they live right next door and need many of the things that we can produce. However, we are not going to ship stuff south for free, so if America lacks the ability to pay then those exports will be re-directed elsewhere.