[holmes]

Yes we focused on Nepal in my systems ecology class in 1998. A partial model of what the Bloated entitled societies need to observe and build. Good post Ibon!

[holmes]

The only reason why Im a doomer is becuase the fertile land base in the USA has been reduced and is being reduced drastically in relation to the scale of the human biomass that is increasing. Thats not good for peace and harmony!

[Ibon]

The reason for the trip was that I sold a business in 2004 and had an open window and some disposable income where I could take my two daughters out of middle school and homeschool them in central Asia to try to wash some of their suburban brainwashed upbringing down the toilet. The mission was pretty successful.

With each step of the way we "mastered" disease, famine, conquered nature and acheived material abundance there grew this self entitlement in our culture that this is all something we deserve and have a right to. The purist version of this attitude is definately the United States of America. Just look at the prevalence of lawsuits and the culture of people suing eachother. And the way we shake like scared little rabbits at the mere phantom threat of terrorists or turn hardworking humble brown "illegal" mexicans or filipinos into slinking demoms that will bring down our society.

Meanwhile mother nature is slowly preparing a brew of self correcting mechanisms that will make the worst terrorist threat imaginable pale by comparison.

We are overdue a little humilty.

[MrBill]

We decided to go to Egypt in January for a week along the Nile. Egypt is an interesting case for me because of their rapid population growth and political problems. We were in Sharm el Sheikh last year just before it got bombed. But other than that it is too touristy to be considered representative of Egypt.

For me there is no use to visit so-called developed countries anymore. Developing countries are far more interesting for what they can teach us. No rose colored glasses here. I am brutally honest about calling a shithole one. But we can learn what not to do from the basket cases as well.

Thanks for the discussion Ibon. Cheers.

[mekmek]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 't')ake my two daughters out of middle school and homeschool them in central Asia to try to wash some of their suburban brainwashed upbringing down the toilet. The mission was pretty successful.

[Mudpuppy]

I used to live in Nepal. I woprked as a medical volunteer there and also travell;ed widely there. While it is true that the structure of the communities is much better preapared to live with peak oil, there are many concerns as well.

1) Very few of the areas in West Nepal where I spent a lot of time have sufficiant wood resources. Kerosene is used for cooking. And in a country where the average income is less than $200 a year, a small increase in kerosene costs has a big effect. Wood is used for heating, but at the cost of stripping entire hillsides and causing significant land erosion. Nepal does have a lot of national parks where wood collecting is illegal and randomly enforced by corrupt police and military trrops. However these measure have less to do with protecting the environment and more to do with protecting the areas where tourists like to visit.

2) While agriculture, industry, and services is often officially quoted as the biggest contributors to the economy, what is overlooked is that most foreign income actually comes from tourism and foreign aid. Two of the biggest areas that will be affected in peak oil.

3) The artifical fertiliser use astounded me. Away from the trekking areas it seems the main use of the porters was for bringing in kerosene and 40 kg bags of fertiliser. The walls and roof of my house were actually insulated with the cut open used fertiliser sacks (as a result I used to lye in bed reading over and over again the same damned fertiliser use instsructions out of boredom as they were plastered all over my walls). Land erosion and over utilisation of the land means that soil quality is often too poor. The use of natural manure fertiliser does help. But due to soil degradation it doesn't appear to be enough on its own.

4) There is a serious threat to the rivers of Nepal due to a changing climate. Glacial run off from the Himalaya's can not be relied upon in the future due to the shrinking size of these glaciers.

The only areas where I saw the use of such things as solar panels and other advancements was in the trekking areas (which is a very small part of nepal). These main touristy areas are usually also the main areas where the government puts to work foreign aid. West Nepal is largely left to itself. The high levels of corruption skims of a large part of the foreign aid before it gets distributed. For example in one village where I stayed the aid for the whole village was distributed by providing it all to the village head free : who then promptly distributed it by setting up his own shop and selling it to the villagers. Even at a subsistance level economy, the class system determines the have's and have not's. Most of the farmers working subsistance land don't own the land, but must pay 50% of their harvest over to the land owner. (who usually happens tobe a high cast Brahman).

The main point is true however. Countries like Nepal that have populations that live on very small amounts per capita use of fossil fuels will have less upheaval due to peak oil. However without foreign aid, tourism income, kerosene for cooking, and artificial fertilisers, I fear what will become of many of the forgotten areas of Nepal. A 20 cent rise per litre of liquid fuels make little difference in the West, but if it is kerosene a 20 cent rise in price makes a big difference to how much cooking fuel is available to a family in a country like Nepal that is the third poorest in the world.
Starvation is almost unknown in Nepal. Malnutrition however is extremely common, and when you have a culture that is that close to the edge. Even though they are less reliant on fossil fuels than out own cultures. They have much less buffer room in their lives for any negative changes.

[frankthetank]

The closest i've come to Nepal is watching Michael Palin in his Himalaya series. Sounds like you guys have had a very learning experience.

Couple of questions. What was the weather like? I know elevation plays a huge role, but i wonder if they heat their homes or if they just cover up if it is cold. I'm sure AC is unheard of?

I wonder if small scale hydro and solar, if available, could decrease dependence on fossil fuels and trees? For what i've seen, they do get a lot of sunshine and those Himalayan rivers would be an excellent source of free energy.

[Mudpuppy]

Small scale hydro has a lot of potential in my opinion for Nepal. Many are very small scale. One problem where I was though was that it actually increased deforestation stranegly enough. In one village area in the mountains where I was, the villages used to go to sleep when it got dark and the fire was put out. But small scale hydro electrical units provided low wattage electrcity enough for lighting. So that meant they could stay awake until about 10 or 11 at night (and so they kept the fire going until 10 or 11 at night, instead of putting it out at 6 and then going to bed). Firewood consumption increased dramatically, and so did surrounding deforestation. But that is just teething problems with putting in new technology into systems like that, and I am a fan of the small scale hydro plants (some of them are built with just three sacks of cement and the generator so are small enough to be built several days from the nearest roads using porters to bring equipemrnt in).
There are many charities that establish these small scale hydro power units.
see http://practicalaction.org/?id=region_nepal

you might also be interested in this site which goes into some detail about the renewable efforts and problems in rural Nepal
http://www.hlf.org.np/energyintro.htm I found this quote on the site interesting "For most villagers, kerosene for lighting is a significant expense, accounting for 10% to 20% of a typical family’s earnings.......Disposable flashlight (dry cell) batteries, used for flashlights and radio/cassette players are another significant expense for villagers, accounting for an additional 10% of families’ earnings. ." From my limited experience I would agree with that assesment (but please keep in mind that one persons experience is a very limited view).

I think biogas for cooking fuel has a significant potential as well for these poor communities. I made a drum biogas unit as an experiment and for water heating when I was in Nepal after getting the idea for it from a site that suugest them for volunatry workers in poor countries. http://www.angelfire.com/mac/egmatthews ... iogas.html
the only difference was that I used vegitation mostly (weeds)instead of dung like they suggested because the locals needed all the dung for fertiliser. I got about 10 cubic ft of gas for every kilogram of weeds, but I think half that was carbon dioxide and the other half methane (roughly, as it is hard to be accurate). I had to use a batch system though instead of daily feed system because I used vegitation instead of dung. (I used it to boil drinking water for myself to make it safe). And

The only main issue with getting more sustainable energy into these poor communities is cost and knowledge. Which is probably why in the mountains it is often the monasteries that set up the small hydro units, or charity groups (they are the only ones with the money and the knowledge).

But please keep in mind that Nepal is a land of extreme geography from hot lowlands to high mountains and I only experienced living in the mountain village areas, so I am only talking about the remote mountain village areas of Nepal (these areas have an annual population growth rate of 1.8%, but the lowland Terrai has an annual population growth rate of 4.7%). About 50% of the population live in the hills and mountains, and the other half live in the Terrai (flat hot lowland).

Just a bit of food for thought about Nepals hydrocarbon use from the site about Nepals energy problems
"Because Nepal has no fossil fuel reserves, dependence on imports of kerosene, gasoline and diesel have put a strain on the economy and made Nepal vulnerable to embargoes. Fossil fuel imports accounted for 24% of total export earnings in 1993/93, down from 32% in 1991/92. In 1989, a kerosene embargo levied by India brought the Nepalese economy to a halt, and incited mass public demonstrations. "

..... and this was back in 1993 when crude oil was selling for $20 USD a barrel. Now project these figures forward to $60 a brrel. And you can see that $85 crude can utterly destroy Nepals's economy (as it has been doing) even without the Maoits problems they had.

[frankthetank]

Thank you for the insight.

What do they do to make money? Is it tourism or more agriculture? What seemed like the staple food in their diet? and so i take it that they drank right from the mountain rivers/streams? I made the mistake of brushing my teeth from the faucet in Cancun, MX and i paid for it later!

[harihari]

You also didn't mention the insane class system in Nepal, which is as pervasive as the Western, and which also has theological foundations in Hinduism and a thousand years of tradition. WHen the sh*t hits the fan, a lot of the very poor will have serious difficulties-- there are an awful lot of landless in Nepal.

But compared to the U.S....In much of Nepal, most people know how to grow their own food (and make many of the things they need), are physically active, and live in small communities that share resources.