[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('specop', 'K')iddieKorral wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')pecop, how many times do I have to explain this? Islam DOES NOT ENDORSE terrorism. All religions have their share of crazies; ours simply get the most publicity.

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('specop', 'K')iddieKorral wrote:
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')pecop, how many times do I have to explain this? Islam DOES NOT ENDORSE terrorism. All religions have their share of crazies; ours simply get the most publicity.

[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'K')indly allow me the audacity of asking you this very simple question.

Is (the act of) destroying a group of EVIL people an evil act in itself?

[gg3]

First, if you define "things that go on in the human brain" as "not real," then you're locating the human brain/mind/soul system *outside of reality.* Mental events are real in that they are first-person observables, and their consequences (including communications outputs) are second-person observables. They might not be third-person objective observables, but they have objective correlates.

For example a cognitive science guy named Siegel trained a bunch of grad students to describe the colors seen in eidetic imagery (visual imagery seen with eyes closed or against a blank background) in terms of angstrom units. By doing so he was able to develop testable hypotheses about the nature of eidetic imagery under specifically measurable conditions.

It's all about operationalizing one's variables, a subject that I could digress about for ten more pages.


But back to evil here...

With very few exceptions, which tend to prove the rules:

Humans (along with all other organisms) seek to protect their own lives.

Humans (arguably along with many other organisms) have free will, and seek to exercise choice.

Humans (along with all other known cases of organisms studied) seek somatic pleasure and avoid somatic pain; and humans (as well as a few other species studied) also seek gratification and avoid pain in the cognitive realm as well.

Living organisms evolve toward greater degrees of physical complexity and order; and human societies also evolve toward greater degrees of complexity and order, the latter being the definition of progress. Civilization is the type of society characterized by self-increasing complexity and order, reduction of violence and suffering, increase in wellbeing, increase in knowledge, and governance by principle and reason rather than by base instinct.

The Founding Fathers put all of the above far more succinctly:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all (humans) are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among (humans), deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."

So: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are the empirical and natural order of things. Evolution toward greater complexity and order is also the natural order of things. Societies evolve, civilizations evolve, this is the natural order of things. As observed empirically by science, and as stated so well by the founders of modern republican government.

Reason also calls for uniformity and consistency: these are expressed in Kant's "categorical imperative:" Act only in accord with those principles that you could hold to be universally applicable. Treat one's fellow humans as ends, not as means to other ends (this is almost identical with the points that have been raised about empathy). From the categorical imperative, one can make other moral statements, leading to elucidation of the entire basis of morality for a given society.

We reserve the term "evil" for those acts which are the most heinous violation of morality. Those would be acts that most significantly violate the life or liberty of others, acts of cruelty, or acts that lead to the entropy of civilization; and which have no rationale under the categorical imperative.

From the interplay of these forces one gets various sets of qualifications and hierarchies of actions. For example, that it is evil to kill another person, but permissable to do so if that person attacks oneself or another innocent person (e.g. the "robber attacks my family" scenario). This in turn extrapolates to the "just war theory," that warfare is justified in defense against aggression or to overthrow tyranny.

These sets of principles also explain why actions such as the Chechen terrorists attacking the school are evil: children are innocent parties, and are defenseless and powerless, therefore are to be protected in wartime; attacking children is not a legitimate exercise of military force even if one grants that the Chechens are engaged in a war of liberation; the harm done to the children was not accidental but deliberate and premeditated; and so on.

Similarly, revenge is evil because it seeks to justify the escalation of violence, and empirically causes escalation of violence over time. In contrast the "just war theory" is not evil because it limits violence to the context of collective defense against aggression, and does not lead to the propagation of violence much less to its increase over time.

I could go on about "second-order evil acts," i.e. acts that in and of themselves do not appear to be evil as such, but which are so by virtue of their context and consequences. For example (as per one of the main topics of discussion on this board) in a society that is heading for overshoot and collapse, a wide range of acts that, in conditions of sustainable population and resource balance are morally inconsequential, become evil acts because they accelerate or worsen the collapse.

More later...

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'K')indly allow me the audacity of asking you this very simple question.

Is (the act of) destroying a group of EVIL people an evil act in itself?

[smiley]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')re people who commits evil acts, evil people? ie. If I commits an evil act, am I an evil person?

[KiddieKorral]

Specop, tell me: what do you know about Islam? I don't mean that in a hostile way; I'm just trying to address the issues you have with it. So just tell me everything you know about Islam.

[Bytesmiths]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'Y')ou have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Bytesmiths', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Specop_007', 'Y')ou have added this person to your Ignore List. Click HERE to view this post.

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KiddieKorral', 'S')pecop, tell me: what do you know about Islam? I don't mean that in a hostile way; I'm just trying to address the issues you have with it. So just tell me everything you know about Islam.

[KiddieKorral]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') know many European countries are having a hell of a time dealing with Muslims due to their loose immigration laws. They are, to put it simply, being overrun with Muslims who are more interested in seeing those countries adapt to THEIR beliefs rather then adapting to the countries beliefs which they are immigrating to. That sounds alot like a hostile takeover to me.....

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('KiddieKorral', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') know many European countries are having a hell of a time dealing with Muslims due to their loose immigration laws. They are, to put it simply, being overrun with Muslims who are more interested in seeing those countries adapt to THEIR beliefs rather then adapting to the countries beliefs which they are immigrating to. That sounds alot like a hostile takeover to me.....

[Specop_007]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smiley', '
')Does it?

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Chechnya mean anything?
Islamic terrorists hold SCHOOLCHILDREN hostage. Some 500 are killed.
CHILDREN.

You can say "Evil is open to definition" but I say bullshit. Name one other time a school was taken over by extremists and hundreds of schoolchildren murdered in the name of a "God". I have a very low opinion os the Islamic religion at this point. We dont send our women and children with bombs strapped to their chests to blow up airplanes, bus stops and intentionally murder innocents. I see Islam as the Religion of ChickenShits. I wouldnt send my wife or children to do my dirty work.

Let me put it simply for you.
Islam wants you dead. Plan accordingly.

[Guest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')The Islamic attacks are on an unprecedented scale spanning the globe. The attacks you refer to are few, far between and isolated. Its the difference between a global movement supporting Islamic terrorists and a few wackos.

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'F')irst, if you define "things that go on in the human brain" as "not real," then you're locating the human brain/mind/soul system *outside of reality.* Mental events are real in that they are first-person observables, and their consequences (including communications outputs) are second-person observables. They might not be third-person objective observables, but they have objective correlates.

For example a cognitive science guy named Siegel trained a bunch of grad students to describe the colors seen in eidetic imagery (visual imagery seen with eyes closed or against a blank background) in terms of angstrom units. By doing so he was able to develop testable hypotheses about the nature of eidetic imagery under specifically measurable conditions.

[smiley]

Specop

I'm not going to argue with you here as this tread is about the definition of evil. If you want to discuss the Islam please start a separate tread and I'll meet you there.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ohanian', 'P')olice: Why did you commit such evil crime Mr Serial Killer.

Mr Serial Killer: I committed no evil act because I Act only in accord with those principles that I could hold to be universally applicable. I find that killing defenseless living things is a principle which I could hold to be universally applicable.

[KiddieKorral]

Screw it. I give up.

[Madpaddy]

Though I walk through the valley of death no evil shall I fear for i am the evilest motherfucker in the valley.

[Taskforce_Unity]

I didn't read most of the posts but here's my view. Feel free to comment.

A. All we classify is a projection/ are interpretations from our human brain
B. Thus Evil and Good are projections / interpretations
C. Thus evil and Good are non existant

Examples:

If a comet would crash into the earth. It just happens. Millions maybe all life dies. It happens, it is neither good nor evil.

If a man kills another man it happens. Not because he is good or evil.
It is because he has some disorder or other motives.

If i kill a man who would otherwise have killed 10.000 of people on his own through exercising his power would you then call this action good or evil? You can't since it is just a interpretation of the value we give to actions.

Life just is. it is neither good nor evil, it is the way we make it how it is.