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Are the insurgents evil?

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Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby Denny » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 11:07:54

In hearing the news today from Afghanistan, I heard that one NATO solider was killed in battle, along with 36 insurgents.

Funny, how this word "insurgent" has become so popular. By the sound of the word, it painted a picture to me of fighters entering from outside the country in a wave. Checking it out in the dictionary, it just means "rebel" in common parlance. While I believe the goals of the NATO forces in Afghanistan are noble, the reality is that foreign troops are not generally popular, in any country. One question I have is how strong the true Afghan forces are compared to the insurgents. If they cannot attract much more to their forces than the insurgents have on their side just how much promise can we expect for Afghanistan in the long run?

Lastly, by this definition, it would seem that the American revolutionaries would be classed as insurgents in their time, 1776. Makes one pause for a moment doesn't it? It makes you think that heroes are born out of their success and not necessarily by their values.
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby mekrob » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 11:43:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Funny, how this word "insurgent" has become so popular.


I don't watch or read Canadian media, but I've noticed some peculiarities from the US media. Fox tends to always use the word "terrorist", even if it is an insurgent attack, while CNN tends to completely muddle the meanings of the words, often switching them at random. "A terrorist attacked a US Marines convoy. " "An insurgent bombed a cafe today, killing 20."

Very few Americans draw any thought about this, as they themselves think insurgents and terrorists are the same, when they are very different and often fight each other in both nations, Afghanistan and Iraq.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '.') By the sound of the word, it painted a picture to me of fighters entering from outside the country in a wave.


That pretty much is the case, for both Iraq and Afghanistan.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f they cannot attract much more to their forces than the insurgents have on their side just how much promise can we expect for Afghanistan in the long run?


In a very split nation with dozens of ethnic groups just in the major cities alone (50+ in Kabul), do you really think the nation will pull together? I'm not really sure that Afghanistan existed much in its history. It's probably only been in recent history that it's been a nation, thus this simply won't last. It will either fracture into multiple nations or will be united under a Caliphate or other form of empire.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Lastly, by this definition, it would seem that the American revolutionaries would be classed as insurgents in their time, 1776.


Exactly, but I'm not so sure they'd be called terrorists. But then again, they didn't really have the ability to bomb or attack British civilians.
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I have to ask, what again was the main point of this thread? The title is a bit misleading.
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby NEOPO » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 12:14:32

Looks like two people who "arent really sure".

Afghanistan

Not that Wiki is the penultimate reference or anything yet maybe have a look before posting.

Anyone that rebels against TPTB is labelled a terrorist, an insurgent, anarchists etc etc and as far as TPTB are concerned they are the same.

Most of the media is controlled by the Neocons especially Fox.

Who trained and funded Osama?
Who funded the Shah of Iran?
Who were the first to fund Hezbollah?
Who funded the Taliban?
Who is lying to you?

and the list goes on and on yet your history teacher will not tell you this and it isnt written in any history book.
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby KhanCEO » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 16:48:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', '
')Lastly, by this definition, it would seem that the American revolutionaries would be classed as insurgents in their time, 1776. Makes one pause for a moment doesn't it? It makes you think that heroes are born out of their success and not necessarily by their values.


If the Chinese invaded America, then did everything the United States did to Iraq I would be the first insurgent killing Chinese soldiers.
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby Denny » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 17:07:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', '
')I have to ask, what again was the main point of this thread? The title is a bit misleading.


I guess the thoughts are not so well connected are they? But, to me, a resident of a country, though misguided, is not necessarily evil if they are fighting for what they believe is in the long term best interest of their nation. Though their tactics can be evil, that is another point.

On the other hand, by common sense, those who enter a country to take it as possession, against the will of its people are generally considered to be evil. Say, in the case of Afghanistan, when the Soviet Union tried to control it, we perceived them as acting in an evil way. We helped the Afghans in the fight against the Russians. Or if Pakistani based Taliban elements try to seize control of Afghanistan again for their own purposes.

I do not think NATO is acting in an evil way, we are just trying to preserve human rights there and put down drug production and put down schools of terrorism. But, we can be misguided if we think we know what most of the people there want, but are ill informed about them. Do the majority of the Afghans want our type of education, our type of equality of the sexes, our type of economy, etc.? I don't know, but I assume my government does. They shold have experts on those subjects and make sure we are aligned with the Afghan peoples interests. They claim we are. Sometimes I wonder if we really are.
Last edited by Denny on Sun 26 Nov 2006, 17:26:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby kam30en » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 17:09:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t makes you think that heroes are born out of their success and not necessarily by their values.



Yes, exactly. Any self-respecting people would use every resource at their disposal to make sure they were the ones writing the history books. Just imagine if the chinese or japanese had colonized africa instead of europeans. The "decolonization" they would've gone through would've involved the wholesale extermination of all the natives. The same is true with Iraq, if the chinese were in Iraq instead of us, there would be no insurgents. The chinese would arrest Osama's 100+ relatives and execute them. They would torch fields, poison wells, and rape the women. The insurgents are only bold because we are weak. They must be asking themselves, "why are these infidels holding back, they should be raping my daughter, razing my village and bathing me in pigs blood while chopping off my fingers one by one. After all, this is what I'd do to them if our roles were reversed."
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby rogerhb » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 18:03:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'C')hecking it out in the dictionary, it just means "rebel" in common parlance.


The sad thing about all this is that Afghanistan was a UN sanctioned invasion.

However under the UN charter everyone has the right to self defence, so presumably, even against a UN sanctioned invasion.
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby Denny » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 22:12:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', '
')
In a very split nation with dozens of ethnic groups just in the major cities alone (50+ in Kabul), do you really think the nation will pull together? I'm not really sure that Afghanistan existed much in its history. It's probably only been in recent history that it's been a nation, thus this simply won't last. It will either fracture into multiple nations or will be united under a Caliphate or other form of empire.



If you go back in time, Canada was just a set of factions. Over three years, the leaders of various colonies held talks and worked out compromises and the like to form a country. We had worse set of geographic issues than Afghanistan, and of course, money was in very short supply back then too, it was mostly an agrarian/extraction type economy, but the factions worked together and built common infrastructure like the railways and maritime provisions. Canada too was a quite of a mix of ethnic groups and religions, but we have managed to stay geneally peaceable for over 138 years now, outside of the Mackenzie, Papineau and Riel rebellions. Even longer than the U.S. without a civil war. In fact many other parts of the old British Empire have done well at this too, such as Australia and New Zealand, but they did not have the mix of cultures as in Canada. Maybe some of these old world countries should look across the pond at the New World for ideas.
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby Lighthouse » Mon 27 Nov 2006, 04:55:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('kam30en', '.').. Just imagine if the chinese or japanese had colonized africa instead of europeans. ...


kam just in case you haven't heard. China is doing exactly this as we speak ....
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby mekrob » Mon 27 Nov 2006, 14:28:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hey must be asking themselves, "why are these infidels holding back, they should be raping my daughter, razing my village and bathing me in pigs blood while chopping off my fingers one by one. After all, this is what I'd do to them if our roles were reversed."


Oh my. I praise God everyday that we are in the presence of such a great and grand military strategist. Thank God that Kam is in the Army. Oh wait, he's too scared to join up. Maybe that's why we're losing in Iraq. Our top general is sitting at home, typing away on his computer.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he same is true with Iraq, if the chinese were in Iraq instead of us, there would be no insurgents. The chinese would arrest Osama's 100+ relatives and execute them.


Another brilliant remark from our 4 Star Armchair General Kam. Ya genius, Osama is from Saudi Arabia (ethnically Yemeni), not Iraq.
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby Denny » Tue 28 Nov 2006, 17:57:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', 'T')he truth of HIStory suggests otherwise. The Chinese and Japenese and Hindu and Buddhist and Abbo and All Redmen did not practise expansionism like the Judaeo/Christians have ... that is the truth you wanna fudge with.
And if they are doing it today it is because western excess has infringed into all corners of the globe.
It is out of survival.

India and China managed to keep 1/3 of the world's population in rather confined quarters.

Far more peacefully than those who embrace the Star of David, the Crucifix and the Crescent Moon waving trinity of terror.
Your scriptures encourage you to wage war.
The great mythologist Joseph Campbell without a doubt was right on when he coined them 'War Mythologies'.

You had your chance at re-writing history with false politics, false prophets, false media and a false HIStory.

And I wish the indigenous had long ago invaded and butchered the Judaic temple priests and the Pope...and burned these graven images of worship...

Things would be much more peaceful today.

namaste

Raphael


Certainly, our "Christian" civilizations have a lot to answer for. But, to me, many of the leaders of the past never lived the Christian ethic, they just used the faith as a crutch to support their own greed and power lust. To find the real Christians you have to dig down deeper, and check out people like Francis of Assisi in days gone by, or Mother Theresa of Calcutta more recently, not Queen Elizabeth of old, or George Bush today. What about the Mennonites who are Christian, yet abhor armed intervention? The "Good News" of the New Testament is all about forgiveness. Christ even rebuked his disciple who used the sword to defend him.

No civilization is immune to the gross sins of lust, greed and power lust. Its just that some have had more resources at their disposal than others. I do not see why you attach these proclivities to the formal religion of the leaders.

And, among the worst, or maybe the worst, for the horrors inflicted on others, have been atheistic leadership like the U.S.S.R. and Nazi Germany experienced. You can add Pol Pot to the list.
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby rogerhb » Tue 28 Nov 2006, 18:16:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'B')ut, to me, many of the leaders of the past never lived the Christian ethic, they just used the faith as a crutch to support their own greed and power lust.


I'm surprised you find that surprising.

Why did Constantine adopt Christianity? Was it

(a) because of a religious conversion; or
(b) because he wanted power?

Same as it ever was.

The pulpit was big brother in the parish to keep the peasants in line.
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby mekrob » Wed 29 Nov 2006, 12:34:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Chinese and Japenese and Hindu and Buddhist and Abbo and All Redmen did not practise expansionism like the Judaeo/Christians have ... that is the truth you wanna fudge with.


Where the hell did you pull this from? Ever hear of Kam's main man, Genghis Khan? Or how about Japanese agression in WWII? They fought us over oil and expanded their empire, just like we've done for a while now.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')our scriptures encourage you to wage war.


No, our blood tells us to wage war.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')And I wish the indigenous had long ago invaded and butchered the Judaic temple priests and the Pope...and burned these graven images of worship...

Things would be much more peaceful today.


Nope, they are still human. They would have acted largely the same way the world acts now, only people with darker skin would be at the head.

Have contempt for all man, not just whitey.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')Far more peacefully than those who embrace the Star of David, the Crucifix and the Crescent Moon waving trinity of terror.


How is thousands of years of "confined" Eastern conflict any more peaceful than thousands of years of Western conflict?
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby azreal60 » Wed 29 Nov 2006, 16:43:51

An interesting point to consider. Honestly, the quote I find most useful at this point is this.

" Luke, your going to find that a great deal of the truth's we cling too depend greatly on your point of view" Obi Wan Kenobi

Kinda makes sense, doesn't it?
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 29 Nov 2006, 17:43:43

Post-peak-Star-Wars:

Use the horse, Luke.
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Wed 29 Nov 2006, 20:10:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', 'T')he truth of HIStory suggests otherwise. The Chinese and Japenese and Hindu and Buddhist and Abbo and All Redmen did not practise expansionism like the Judaeo/Christians have ... that is the truth you wanna fudge with.
And if they are doing it today it is because western excess has infringed into all corners of the globe.
It is out of survival.

India and China managed to keep 1/3 of the world's population in rather confined quarters.

Far more peacefully than those who embrace the Star of David, the Crucifix and the Crescent Moon waving trinity of terror.
Your scriptures encourage you to wage war.
The great mythologist Joseph Campbell without a doubt was right on when he coined them 'War Mythologies'.

You had your chance at re-writing history with false politics, false prophets, false media and a false HIStory.

And I wish the indigenous had long ago invaded and butchered the Judaic temple priests and the Pope...and burned these graven images of worship...

Things would be much more peaceful today.

namaste

Raphael


Certainly, our "Christian" civilizations have a lot to answer for. But, to me, many of the leaders of the past never lived the Christian ethic, they just used the faith as a crutch to support their own greed and power lust. To find the real Christians you have to dig down deeper, and check out people like Francis of Assisi in days gone by, or Mother Theresa of Calcutta more recently, not Queen Elizabeth of old, or George Bush today. What about the Mennonites who are Christian, yet abhor armed intervention? The "Good News" of the New Testament is all about forgiveness. Christ even rebuked his disciple who used the sword to defend him.

No civilization is immune to the gross sins of lust, greed and power lust. Its just that some have had more resources at their disposal than others. I do not see why you attach these proclivities to the formal religion of the leaders.

And, among the worst, or maybe the worst, for the horrors inflicted on others, have been atheistic leadership like the U.S.S.R. and Nazi Germany experienced. You can add Pol Pot to the list.


Pol Pot's power was derived in great part from animist tribes in the jungles in Cambodia. Hitler used the public's Christian sentiment to forward his ideology. Lenin usurped the Church's power in Russia and co-opted its methods (the state religion aiding czarist Russia in dominating the country's territories).

Apologetics for religion always amuse me with their op-ed logic. Mennonites are an exception having nothing to do with the thesis that religion has failed to prevent wars, despite its rhetoric. You say the holocaust was a worse horror than the colonisation of the New World? I beg to differ. I would suggest the ethnic/religous pograms of Eastern Europe being the pattern for that atrocity. Where is the international religious outcry over the slaughter of innocents in Indonesia? Where were they in the Iraqi seige in the 1990s?

The "Good News" of the New Testament is all about forgiveness. The "Bad News" is that faith is all about self-interest, exceptionalism, and moral relativism. If only a Christian would live the Christian ethic. Indeed they do, though. Bush is a Christian. Bush believes he talks to God. Who is to say he does not?

Apologists always try to squirm out via the "they're not real Christians" argument. Yet there is no standard of defining who is or is not a Christian. All men sin, therefore all Christians sin. A Christian is simply a sinner who believes God is on his side, on call to redeem any hypocrisy or transgression. Refer to Bertrand Russell's excellent "Why I am not a Christian" for more inspiration.

Mother Teresa was a media whore, showing up wherever someone was about to die for a photo-op. Francis of Assisi's life is mostly mythological, as you would expect an 11th century icon to become. Its probably a fact, though that "In 1201 he joined a military expedition against Perugia" (wikipedia).

Anyway, that was my one anti-religious post for this 3-month period. Responses will not be read; I will be happy to discuss details in purgatory, with my brothers and sisters, the clan of fallen men and women who did not happen to munch adequate amounts of the Eucharist.
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby Denny » Thu 30 Nov 2006, 00:02:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '
')Mother Teresa was a media whore, showing up wherever someone was about to die for a photo-op.


:cry: We could use a few more whores then. She gave a several thousand people a few moments of dignity and comfort as their last days on earth expired.

Another philosophical view of Christianity, from G.K. Chesterton:

“Christianity has not been tried and found false, but Christianity has been found difficult and not tried.”
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby BlisteredWhippet » Thu 30 Nov 2006, 01:47:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '
')Mother Teresa was a media whore, showing up wherever someone was about to die for a photo-op.


:cry: We could use a few more whores then. She gave a several thousand people a few moments of dignity and comfort as their last days on earth expired.

Another philosophical view of Christianity, from G.K. Chesterton:

“Christianity has not been tried and found false, but Christianity has been found difficult and not tried.”


Nice.

Perhaps M. Teresa should have served her purpose better by slitting their jugulars with a strait razor, thereby sending them straight to Everlasting Life.

Or perhaps pumping their veins with Morphine bought with some of the donation money. Or perhaps arriving in the slum with two truckloads of condoms and dirty magazines.

But did she? Naw. She showed up as "God's wife" to do a simple fuckin' job millions of nurses do every day for much less notoriety. (Although they are paid well...)
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Re: Are the insurgents evil?

Unread postby Doly » Thu 30 Nov 2006, 11:33:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '
')Or perhaps pumping their veins with Morphine bought with some of the donation money.


From what I've read, at least some people were given painkillers.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BlisteredWhippet', '
')But did she? Naw. She showed up as "God's wife" to do a simple fuckin' job millions of nurses do every day for much less notoriety. (Although they are paid well...)


From what I've read, nurses generally do a much more thorough job. What Mother Theresa was up to was the most basic level of care. But then, nobody was doing it at all before her.
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