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If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilization

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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 25 Nov 2006, 18:04:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AWPrime', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emailking', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AWPrime', 'E')lectromagnetic waves have a limited speed in normal space-time that is what the laws of physics say. This doesn't exclude space-time alteration or exotic communication mediums.

Special Relativity implies that there exist no method, even theoretically, for faster than light communication to be possible. The concept of "now" becomes fuzzy in areas of spacetime that cannot be connected by electromagnetic radiation.

As far as I know that only counts for electromagnetics and known matter.

Standard Model in particle physics does not give you any hope for existance of matter, save singularities, which alters basic physical constants of our spacetime by direct interaction.
Even singularities are not doing that, albeit our spacetime simply ends there. They are also either in your past or future and time cannot "flow" through singularity. It simply begins or ends there.

Your problem is not in some kind "new matter/radiation", which can propagate through our spacetime with superluminal speed and yet forward in time.
Your problem is, that our ordinary spacetime will not lend itself to such adventure and will not allow to transfer information forward in time with FTL speed by whatever exotic carrier, you can imagine.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')se of space-time warpages would not constitute faster than light travel since you're merely taking an existing shortcut.

In practical sense it is FTL.

In practical sense it had never been observed, and it is quite likely that some underlaying principle in physics will protect causality and effectively eliminate any hope for wormhole travel (even if wormhole itself can exist) or a warp drives.
I had already given you some hints about infinite blue shift radiation, which every potential wormhole traveler would have to face and cope with.
Note that it carries arbitrary large energy...bad news...
Last edited by EnergyUnlimited on Sat 25 Nov 2006, 18:10:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby emailking » Sat 25 Nov 2006, 18:04:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')I do not have any problems with your arguments with exception of #2.
I don't think, that we have sufficient expertise and adequate instrumentation to detect Earth size planets 10 or 30 light years away.
We are not in position to state with any certainty, that they are (or are not) there.


I thought we do. Maybe I'm wrong.

Edit: Actually we have detected earth like planets, but I'm not positive on whether we can rule such out.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby emailking » Sat 25 Nov 2006, 18:08:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AWPrime', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emailking', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AWPrime', 'E')lectromagnetic waves have a limited speed in normal space-time that is what the laws of physics say. This doesn't exclude space-time alteration or exotic communication mediums.

Special Relativity implies that there exist no method, even theoretically, for faster than light communication to be possible. The concept of "now" becomes fuzzy in areas of spacetime that cannot be connected by electromagnetic radiation.

As far as I know that only counts for electromagnetics and known matter.


No. It accounts for everything that can possibly be discovered. Note I said "even theoretically."
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby AWPrime » Sat 25 Nov 2006, 19:34:07

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')se of space-time warpages would not constitute faster than light travel since you're merely taking an existing shortcut.
In practical sense it is FTL.

In practical sense it had never been observed, and it is quite likely that some underlaying principle in physics will protect causality

Causality is never threated by warping of space.
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby Omnitir » Sat 25 Nov 2006, 20:51:39

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')es, but only a tiny fraction of those are anything close to the perfect size for Earth-like planets to exist. And of that tiny fraction, only a tiny fraction would likely have the right planetary setup to protect the inner system and allow life to form. And of that tiny fraction, there would likely only be a tiny fraction that have a planet at just the right distance from the star to support life. And of that tiny fraction, it is incredibly unlikely that a precise and marvellously lucky collision occurred with another planet that was just enough to form an abnormally large moon but not destroy the planet, and so allowing stable seasons and gently cycling gravitational pulls.


1% of 1% of 1% of billions is still a pretty big number...

1%? Sure, that’s a lot of planets. So is 99%. But both figures are off with the fairies.

Take the planetoid collision that formed our moon. No way in hell 1 in 100 planets experience the same amazing fluke of surviving a collision with another planet early in it’s life and forming an abnormally large moon. 1 in 100? 1 in a trillion would be more realistic.
"Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby emailking » Sat 25 Nov 2006, 21:07:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AWPrime', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')se of space-time warpages would not constitute faster than light travel since you're merely taking an existing shortcut.
In practical sense it is FTL.

In practical sense it had never been observed, and it is quite likely that some underlaying principle in physics will protect causality

Causality is never threated by warping of space.


The universe does seem to want to protect global causality. The apparent nonexistence of naked singularities is one such indication.

The spacetime warpages you speak of are called wormholes. Theoretically it appears that a wormhole may be able to be made into a time machine, allowing global causality to be violated. (There is no reason to believe local causality can ever be violated.) However, a photon can make its way from one mouth of the wormhole to other in this case, at just the right moment to double up on itself. Of course this "doubling up" continues ad infinitum until we have an infinitely bright beam connecting mouths. This causes an infinite warpage of spacetime. Effectively, this means the wormhole destroys itself before it actually becomes a time machine capable of violating causality. Various workarounds have been posed for this dilemma, but it is still an open question.
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby Omnitir » Sat 25 Nov 2006, 21:11:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '
')And then there’s Fermi’s paradox. Any advanced civilization, even with space flight speeds equal to our own, has had enough time to colonise the entire galaxy long before we even evolved. If they exist, why can’t we see their galactic super-civilization?


Fermi paradox is not particularly difficult to debunk/deal with.
Below are few possibilities.

1. It is physically impossible (or prohibitively expensive) for any civilization made of any possible chemical set-up of life, to organize and execute interstellar tavel.
That mean that very few (if any at all) adventures like that had been successfully carried out and therefore we were never witnessing that.

2. Technological civilizations are so rare that any Galaxy harbouring one is very lucky (or unlucky according to our enviro guys).

3. Advanced civilizations show no interest in interstellar travel.

4. We are alone in Galaxy or may be in entire Universe.

5. We are ignored by peaceful, non conquering Aliens.
That may be their mistake. They should mass-nuke or seed with strangeletts or nanoprobes such a place like Earth to be safe themself in the future.
Just for their own sake.


Yes, well my argument is that we are alone, and that this theory is consistent with Fermi’s paradox. So regarding the possibilities you mentioned:

1. If interstellar travel turns out to be impossible for whatever reason, then we are alone. And ultimately, any advanced civilization that is confined the physical limits of it’s own planet or star system, will eventually die out (in which case, we are alone).
2. If intelligence is so rare (as I believe it is), then again we are alone.
3. If ET has not interest in expanding beyond his star system, he must eventually die out.
4. If we are it, then once again yes, we are alone.
5. We are ‘ignored’? Fine, but why can’t we see them? The idea that ET is far away from us doing their own thing in their own little corner of space is ridiculous when you consider the need for resource consumption. Could an advanced technological space-faring civilization survive for hundreds of millions of years without expanding out and consuming more resources? Even with the most advanced star trek technology and uber efficiency and conservation, any advanced civilization would gradually need to expand in order to stay advanced. It would only take them a few million years to consume most of the resources available in the entire galaxy.

No, as far as I see it there are only 3 possibilities to Fermi:
1. ET has the ability to magically create matter and energy from literally nothing, in which case is capable of avoiding growth for many millions of years.
2. ET has long ago colonized the entire galaxy and is somehow hiding the true nature of the galaxy from us, meaning we are in a zoo.
3. We are the only intelligence in the galaxy.
Now which one seems the most probable?
"Mother Nature is a psychopathic bitch, and she is out to get you. You have to adapt, change or die." - Tihamer Toth-Fejel, nanotech researcher/engineer.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Sat 25 Nov 2006, 21:56:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'A')re you suggesting, that we are not intelligent?
That's a topic for another thread

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'W')e had already sent enough electromagnetic noise into space, that any hypotethical alien civilization within about 100 light years from us and with technology comparable to ours should be able to intercept some of this noise and find out our location (and plenty of other info about us) by the same.
Sorry. I thought you were talking about information. I didn't realize you were looking for Laverne and Shirley re-runs from some alien sitcom that was canceled 1000 years ago.
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 04:53:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', '
')Yes, well my argument is that we are alone, and that this theory is consistent with Fermi’s paradox. So regarding the possibilities you mentioned:

1. If interstellar travel turns out to be impossible for whatever reason, then we are alone. And ultimately, any advanced civilization that is confined the physical limits of it’s own planet or star system, will eventually die out (in which case, we are alone).

If interstellar travel turns out to be impossible, it implies that we had never been visited, but not that we are alone.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2'). If intelligence is so rare (as I believe it is), then again we are alone.

If intelligence is very rare, but exist in more than one place in Universe, than we are not alone.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '3'). If ET has not interest in expanding beyond his star system, he must eventually die out.

And so what? Even if they have interest in expansion, Thermal Death by Entropy will deal with them (and with us).
BTW, the end will come much faster and you will not have to wait for this long...
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '4'). If we are it, then once again yes, we are alone.

Yes, in this case (and only in this case) we are alone.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '5'). We are ‘ignored’? Fine, but why can’t we see them? The idea that ET is far away from us doing their own thing in their own little corner of space is ridiculous when you consider the need for resource consumption. Could an advanced technological space-faring civilization survive for hundreds of millions of years without expanding out and consuming more resources? Even with the most advanced star trek technology and uber efficiency and conservation, any advanced civilization would gradually need to expand in order to stay advanced. It would only take them a few million years to consume most of the resources available in the entire galaxy.
Re. Resources consumption and growth problems:
My understanding of problem is, that laws of physics will put ultimate limits on growth as well as limits on what can possibly be achieved by means of progress of technology.
Eg it may turn out, that no conceivable technology will allow you interstellar travel, or that adventure like that will be hopelessly expensive and extremely rarely (if ever) undertaken.
BTW, we recently begin to observe, that processor clock speed no longer doubles every 18 months or so.
Alien civilization, if clevel enough may use billion years long energy flow from their sun and in principle may exist this long.
With fissile nuclear fuels on any planet you could run civillization like our for many millenia at least.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o, as far as I see it there are only 3 possibilities to Fermi:
1. ET has the ability to magically create matter and energy from literally nothing, in which case is capable of avoiding growth for many millions of years.
2. ET has long ago colonized the entire galaxy and is somehow hiding the true nature of the galaxy from us, meaning we are in a zoo.
3. We are the only intelligence in the galaxy.
Now which one seems the most probable?

Disagree with your conclusions for reasons given above.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 05:03:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', 'S')orry. I thought you were talking about information. I didn't realize you were looking for Laverne and Shirley re-runs from some alien sitcom that was canceled 1000 years ago.

Any quantum of electromagnetic radiation is carrying with itself an information about its source.
Future reading: Please investigate issues related to pure quantum states and mixed quantum states. You cannot convert former into latter, hence information is not lost.

Black holes just maybe, but not necesserely are an exception.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby AWPrime » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 08:04:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emailking', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AWPrime', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')se of space-time warpages would not constitute faster than light travel since you're merely taking an existing shortcut.
In practical sense it is FTL.

In practical sense it had never been observed, and it is quite likely that some underlaying principle in physics will protect causality

Causality is never threated by warping of space.

The spacetime warpages you speak of are called wormholes. Theoretically it appears that a wormhole may be able to be made into a time machine, allowing global causality to be violated.
They have calulated that with string theory and that methord doesn't work.

If we have starttime 'n', endtime n+1 and a straight wormhole, then there will be no violation of causality.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')owever, a photon can make its way from one mouth of the wormhole to other in this case, at just the right moment to double up on itself. Of course this "doubling up" continues ad infinitum until we have an infinitely bright beam connecting mouths. This causes an infinite warpage of spacetime.
I question the possiblity of photons being able to double up in highly curved space.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 10:34:37

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'A')ny quantum of electromagnetic radiation is carrying with itself an information about its source.
So what sort of information might an alien civilization garner from our Laverne and Shirley re-runs that would have any practical aplicability? They could figure out our location. They would have no idea if we even still existed by then. If they could deduce the signal modulation, they would almost certainly be unable to decipher the language. Realistically, other than knowing that they aren't alone, there would be very little to learn from that. I'm sure that a whole school of alien anthropology would spring up on planet Zed to study and catalog our movements and activities, but ultimately it would just be a bunch of alien eggheads staring at a television and they wouldn't learn any more from it than we do.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby emailking » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 12:10:18

"They have calulated that with string theory and that methord doesn't work."

Again, this is an open question.

"I question the possiblity of photons being able to double up in highly curved space."

Your questioning would do better if you had a background in this area. In any case, this would be what makes it an open question. The workaround involves diffusing the beam so that it does not become infinite. But doubling up still occurs.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby AWPrime » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 13:46:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emailking', '"')They have calulated that with string theory and that methord doesn't work."
Again, this is an open question.

Could you rephrase?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')our questioning would do better if you had a background in this area. In any case, this would be what makes it an open question. The workaround involves diffusing the beam so that it does not become infinite. But doubling up still occurs.

Does doubling up also take place in black holes?
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 14:42:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AWPrime', '
')Does doubling up also take place in black holes?

In Schwartzchild type of black hole (static black hole) - No.

In Kerr type (rotating black hole with 2 event horizons & ring singularity) - possibly yes, but I would have to think about it more.
May be emailking will know more about reasoning here.
In any case "doubled" photons would merge with singularity (given enough time) and cease to exist by the same.

BTW, Black Holes, even if widely trumpeted between physicists may not even exist.
They could for example be mistaken with MECO (magnetospheric ethernally collapsing objects, free of singularity).
In any cases existance of MECO would eliminate possibility of existance of black hole and vice versa.
Currently black holes are favoured, but this may change.
It would be very difficult (but yet possible) to distinguish between thouse 2 objects given right circumstances.
We have one candidate for MECO.
You may read about it below:
http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark? ... mentPage=1
If confirmed, bye, bye black holes.
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby emailking » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 14:56:41

In the standard black hole (which does not exist in reality but is the simplest to model) the answer is no as Energy said. As soon as you cross the horizon, your fate as fixed. The roles of time and space have been interchanged. The singularity literally exists in your future.

For a rotating black hole (as they all are in reality), I still say no. There is a second horizon you can cross which can allow you to escape the singularity, but now time and space are back to their normal roles. There is no time travel taking place. An observer may see doubled up images of themselves as all kinds of wackiness is taking place optically, but individual photons do not double up.

Now what if the photon crosses the ring singularity and entere the other space-time we know nothing about (Energy discussed this earlier) and this happens to be an earlier time in our *own* universe such that the photon can make it back to the hole in time to double up... This would be where I no longer have an answer.
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby emailking » Sun 26 Nov 2006, 23:55:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('emailking', ' ')....and this happens to be an earlier time in our *own* universe such that the photon can make it back to the hole in time to double up... This would be where I no longer have an answer.


Could this article help in the understanding of rotation or spin occurring on all levels?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his amazing tale of chirality in nature does not end here. It just begins. Since the time of Pasteur, research on chirality has made tremendous progress and many more extremely perplexing examples have come to light testifying that chirality can be unmistakably detected by different species of life.
By now chirality is discovered to operate at every level of material existence. Yet the manner of how and why it so behaves is far from understood. Until 1957 it was believed that the four fundamental forces which govern the interaction of elementary particles were parity conserving. This simply means that all particles at elementary level had chiral-symmetry. However, in 1957 Chien-Shiung Wu and her colleagues at Columbia University discovered that beta particles emitted from radioactive nuclei did not display chiral-symmetry. The left-handed electrons far outnumbered the right-handed ones. It was further discovered that the tiniest subatomic particles, neutrinos and anti-neutrinos, which are electrically neutral and move at the speed of light, also display a certain spin. But unlike electrons which predominantly prefer left-handed spin, anti-neutrinos are always partial to the right-hand. The contrary is not found in nature. No one knows why chiral-asymmetry exists at such fundamental levels of existence at all.
Many hypotheses are being presented but most are found to be simply preposterous when examined more minutely. However, there is one suggestion which seems to have provided scientists with a clue to the factor possibly at work at the most rudimentary level of chirality in nature. Yet at this level, it is too ethereal to be demonstrated or verified. It is related to a theory which unifies the weak and electromagnetic forces first propounded by Dr. Abdus Salam, Steven Weinberg and Sheldon Glashow in 1960. That theory predicted a new electroweak force which does not conserve parity. This disparity according to scientists could possibly be responsible for the right-handed spin of anti-neutrinos and left-handed spin of neutrinos, as well as that of electrons. But this weak electric force cannot be contemplated as the causative factor to produce the right sided or left sided behaviours at all other levels of chirality. The behavioural difference between the two sometimes perplexes scientists, particularly in relation to the role they play in biotic evolution. The problem is further compounded when we observe that the two right sided and left sided components of exactly the same chemical formula exert a completely different influence on life in odd ways.


namaste

Raphael


As far as I can tell, this is not relevant to black hole physics. (Yes, I saw your bolded part.) But who knows.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 27 Nov 2006, 03:40:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('smallpoxgirl', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'A')ny quantum of electromagnetic radiation is carrying with itself an information about its source.
So what sort of information might an alien civilization garner from our Laverne and Shirley re-runs that would have any practical aplicability? They could figure out our location. They would have no idea if we even still existed by then. If they could deduce the signal modulation, they would almost certainly be unable to decipher the language. Realistically, other than knowing that they aren't alone, there would be very little to learn from that. I'm sure that a whole school of alien anthropology would spring up on planet Zed to study and catalog our movements and activities, but ultimately it would just be a bunch of alien eggheads staring at a television and they wouldn't learn any more from it than we do.

An evidence of existance and location are obvious things to learn, as you had stated.
What we could learn more?
Well, the important thing to realise is that "commercials" would most unlikely turn to be first signals intercepted.
I would bet, that first intercepted signals would be communication attempts with their space probes or satelites (I believe, that any technological civilization will have those at some point of their development).
Intercepting those would certainly assist us with assessment, how advanced they were at the time when signals were sent.
We could have good idea about their technological capability and this alone would be a significant achievement.

Now concerning "commercials": Well anything about this civilization, its social set up, biology of the planet etc could in principle be learned (they would liklely to touch these subjects in their transmissions from time to time), as long as we have sufficiently long data stream in our disposal.
"Demodulating" would not be a problem, but language "decoding" would be one of most complicated computing projects ever undertaken, but I do not think that it is impossible task by principles.
The first gist of their language we would retreive from highly structurised communications with their space probes and this would ensure, that we have something to start to work with.

I could forsee a failure on our side, if Aliens technology is so advanced, that we would not be able to make sense of it at all - but at least we would learn just that...and we would know that such technology is possible to develope, and that we do not know much...
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby Doly » Mon 27 Nov 2006, 08:11:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '
')"Demodulating" would not be a problem.


I wouldn't be sure of that at all. TV signals are very non-trivial to interpret. And TCP/IP protocol is something I wouldn't like to try to decode...
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