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If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilization

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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 11:53:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'S')o sad.
So many people unable to think outside the box.
Thank you for keeping an open mind - you know who you are 8)

"The halls of science and all the lunatics committed there"

What is that box which you had mentioned above?
Neverthless who are YOU?
Was your mother Jewish prisoner of Austwitz and your father a lagerkappo?
Was you smuggled into US, once a war ended?
Last edited by EnergyUnlimited on Fri 24 Nov 2006, 11:59:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby Battle_Scarred_Galactico » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 11:54:21

Recieving a signal is possible, I believe it would have had to have been sent many millions of years ago, but it could happen.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby AWPrime » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 12:06:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'A')liens send signal+we receive signal=existence of Aliens is proven and some information about them is retreived.

I don't care, I already know that there is a big chance of an alien civilisation out there (or was out there). Having their existence proven does nothing to change my world view.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')everhless by receiving a signal from arbitrary far away civilization we could prove their existance and retreive some information about them.

Alien commercials?

I do not know, what are you trying to suggest here.

The first signals we sent into space are BS, any signals we can might as wel be BS.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')ry imagine that they constructed sufficiently powerful transmitter and decided to send any signal only 2 years ago.
If they are 5 light years away we will receive their signal after 3 years from now on.
8 years from now they could receive our answer.

Bla bla bla, then that signal will be notiched even if we aren't looking.
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 12:11:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Battle_Scarred_Galactico', 'R')ecieving a signal is possible, I believe it would have had to have been sent many millions of years ago, but it could happen.

ANY signal sent from within OUR Galaxy would reach us within about 130 000 of years from sending event, if electromagnetic radiation is used for transmission purpose.
If the signal is sent from outside of our Galaxy, it would take millions or even billions of years.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 12:21:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AWPrime', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'A')liens send signal+we receive signal=existence of Aliens is proven and some information about them is retreived.

I don't care, I already know that there is a big chance of an alien civilisation out there (or was out there). Having their existence proven does nothing to change my world view.

Looks like primitive approach.
Typical for many members of Western civilization.
Better go to your local McDonald and have a chat with few silly friends.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he first signals we sent into space are BS, any signals we can might as wel be BS.

It is beyond your understanding, how much useful information common BS can carry...Look on our inteligence agencies. Observe how much effort they pay to retrieve some BS from various communication sources (phone, internet...).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')la bla bla, then that signal will be notiched even if we aren't looking.

And what if we are looking?
Many currently working radiotelescopes on the Earth could intercept such signal.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby AWPrime » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 12:43:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AWPrime', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', 'A')liens send signal+we receive signal=existence of Aliens is proven and some information about them is retreived.

I don't care, I already know that there is a big chance of an alien civilisation out there (or was out there). Having their existence proven does nothing to change my world view.

Looks like primitive approach. Typical for many members of Western civilization.

Primitive? I am saying that we need something better, and any civilisation that uses such means would be worth communicating with.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')etter go to your local McDonald and have a chat with few silly friends.

Go find a job.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he first signals we sent into space are BS, any signals we can might as wel be BS.
It is beyond your understanding, how much useful information common BS can carry
Size of their underware, is that usefull for you? Go get some standards.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')la bla bla, then that signal will be notiched even if we aren't looking.And what if we are looking?
Won't change a thing. And if they are using a highly used frequency then they will almost surely be sued by someone for causing interference.
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby ashurbanipal » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 13:27:08

We assume too easily that alien civilizations would be like ours to the degree necessary that we would recognize it as such. There's no reason to assume that we're not receiving hundreds of signals daily, but because our minds are so different, we are incapable of recognizing it.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 13:33:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AWPrime', '
')Primitive? I am saying that we need something better, and any civilisation that uses such means would be worth communicating with.

It is extremely unlikely, that faster than light communication is technologically possible.
Laws of physics are apparently forbidding that...unless you wish to face some topological deffects of spacetime (if they exist at all).
Supernova alike energy flux would give you some (small) chance perhaps...
Shortly: your faster than light communication attempt will be defeated. Physics win...and civilizations loose...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')o find a job.

Well, I do not need it...lucky perhaps...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ize of their underware, is that usefull for you? Go get some standards.

Oh yes, it would be extremely useful.
We could begin to try to reconstruct how they look perhaps...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')on't change a thing. And if they are using a highly used frequency then they will almost surely be sued by someone for causing interference.

What drug you are currently on? I would love to get a bit of that, whatever it is.
Are you going to send police or a lawyer into interstellar space travel?
Would you pay for alliens travel expenses to attend our court hearing?
And what would happen, if they would refuse to attend your court and sent you few strangelets instead?

FYI: Strangelet is a matter composed of up, down and strange quarks. According to particle physics theory (Standard Model) it has density slightly higher than neutron star and it will convert another hadronic matter into itself upon contact.
Stable strangelets (known also as strange matter) may or may not exist.
We do not have experimental evidence of its existance yet. This may or may not change.
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Re: Will Humans Discover That They Are Not Alone in the Univ

Unread postby AWPrime » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 13:49:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AWPrime', '
')Primitive? I am saying that we need something better, and any civilisation that uses such means would be worth communicating with.

It is extremely unlikely, that faster than light communication is technologically possible.

It is more then extremely unlikely, that there are aliens in nearby star systems.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')hortly: your faster than light communication attempt will be defeated. Physics win...and civilizations lose...

Being a hypocrite? You talk about strangelets while FTL communications can theoretically be done by directing micro wormholes and transmitting through them.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')ize of their underware, is that usefull for you? Go get some standards.
Oh yes, it would be extremely useful. We could begin to try to reconstruct how they look perhaps...
I rather have genetic data.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')on't change a thing. And if they are using a highly used frequency then they will almost surely be sued by someone for causing interference.
What drug you are currently on? I would love to get a bit of that, whatever it is.
We will get a need for interstellar communication law, and there will be early conflicts and during these conflicts we won’t care that we can’t each other.

A lot of messages we sent back will be "Stop transmitting on this frequency!" or "That star system is ours" and considering how stupid people are "Do you believe in jesus?".
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby TITAN » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 14:04:48

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Battle_Scarred_Galactico', 'D')on't get your hopes up, the distances involved would take even light hundreds of thousands, even millions of years to travel.


Since radio travels at the speed of light, it would not take millions, or thousands, or even hundreds of years to receive a possible signal. There are hundreds of stars relatively close to our own, it is referred to as the 'local group'. The nearest Is the Centauri system, of which Alpha is the same size and spectral class as our sun, it is 'merely' 4.3 light years away. There are 40 or so stars that are within 20 light years of our system, several of them are very similar to our own sun.


Since there now seems to be a serious attempt at building a working fusion reactor, the path has opened for plausible travel within the closest stars. It is only a matter of time before this technology is applied to space travel, I would say within the next 100 years or so.

Humans are a nomadic and adventure-seeking species (some of us anyway), it is only natural that we will eventually explore other star systems, or we will stay here and destroy ourselves...
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby AWPrime » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 14:18:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TITAN', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Battle_Scarred_Galactico', 'D')on't get your hopes up, the distances involved would take even light hundreds of thousands, even millions of years to travel.

Since radio travels at the speed of light, it would not take millions, or thousands, or even hundreds of years to receive a possible signal.

A possible alien civilisation can be thousands of light years away.
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby Anthrobus » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 17:06:15

as a direct answer to the topic,

there is a protocol for astronomers on how to proceed in the case of a possible extraterrestical signal.

Another question:
If god would reveal himself to us ....

or does he already, many times a day, to every individual?
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby Ingenuity_Gap » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 17:10:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TITAN', 'S')ince there now seems to be a serious attempt at building a working fusion reactor, the path has opened for plausible travel within the closest stars. It is only a matter of time before this technology is applied to space travel, I would say within the next 100 years or so.


Although "fusion" sounds like a big word it's actually worthless when talking about interstellar space travel.

Space travel is something totally different than what we are used to. To be more than Star Trek fantasy there are:

1. Energy requirements

To allow for a meaningful trip (during the lifetime of a human or less) to the nearest star (4.3 ly) the energy requirements are so huge, there is no way they can be overcome with our current or even near-future technology. We are still using ICE engines based on fossil fuels, for god's sake.

2. Propellant requirements

All current modes of space transportation are based on carrying the propellant necessary for propelling the spacecraft with the spacecraft.

Sending one school bus size payload past Alpha Centauri within 900 years (I know, it's almost a joke) would require:

Chemical engines (like the ones in the space shuttle) are completely useless. There is not enough matter in the entire universe to allow for that.

Fission 1 billion naval supertankers.

Fusion would require 1000 naval supertankers.

In the best case (fictional antimatter engine at 100% efficiency) 10 railway tankers.

3. Technological breakthroughs

To go beyond the nearest stars we need a totally different type of propulsion, one that is capable of faster-than-light speeds, otherwise the time spent on a journey would be prohibitive. As we all know wormholes, warp drives, antigravity engines are still only science-fiction.


When you start to grasp the difficulty of the problem you calm down and come back to Earth quickly.
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby Niagara » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 17:55:30

My turn:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ingenuity_Gap', '
')Although "fusion" sounds like a big word it's actually worthless when talking about interstellar space travel.

Far from worthless, fusion would be a great energy source for something like the Bussard Ramjet

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ingenuity_Gap', '
')To go beyond the nearest stars we need a totally different type of propulsion, one that is capable of faster-than-light speeds, otherwise the time spent on a journey would be prohibitive.

Not true. You're forgetting about relativity.

No, I don't mean time dilation because this would not benefit the passengers on the spaceship. Kinematics still applies. I'm talking about length contraction. As the ship approaches the speed of light the distance to the destination star would contract, shortening the journey considerably.

Ideally a spaceship would be designed to accelerate at 1g. This would provide artificial gravity for the passengers and eliminate the physiological problems associated with a weightless environment. It would take roughly one year to reach c at this acceleration (Asympotically of course, c is never achieved). Then relativity kicks in bringing about length-contraction. Halfway through the journey the ship simply turns around and reverse thrusts at 1g.

It would a considerable amount of fuel to "get going" but once a critical speed is reached the ramjet is switched on [smilie=eusa_clap.gif]
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby MD » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 18:24:55

I know it doesn't take much wattage to cover long distances, look at the voyager probes for example.

But we are talking interstellar distances here and there is a cube-square law at work. Just how many watts power are required to be detectable over interstellar distances? There are whole ranges of frequencies that will be washed out by background noise also.

The SETI people are listening, so I suppose the basic math has been done and there are frequency ranges worth watching. I am about interested enough to get my lazy ass up and dig out an old electronics text that i am sure is around the place somewhere...
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby TheDude » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 19:28:05

Reach the stars? Let's try and get an LNG tanker from the Middle East to Mexico first.
I love the idea of perhaps someday having pics of another star system, and perhaps we could pull it off - read about Robert Forward's tiny Starwisp probe for instance. But also read about the Rare Earth hypothesis, which Omnitir alluded to. Even a sprinkling of the caveats here make complex life in the galaxy unlikely. If it's any consolation there's a good chance the universe has a wide variety of low-level life, like the extremophiles that live around vents on the ocean floor. But for a stable comfy existence like we have here it seems you need a big laundry list of just-so conditions, making more complex life in the galaxy seem unlikely - perhaps in the whole visible universe.
The data we have of extrasolar planets isn't encouraging either - lots of planets many times the size of Jupiter orbiting nearer their star than Mercury does to the Sun, or planets in wildly elliptical orbits.
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby NEOPO » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 22:11:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('EnergyUnlimited', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'S')o sad.
So many people unable to think outside the box.
Thank you for keeping an open mind - you know who you are 8)

"The halls of science and all the lunatics committed there"

What is that box which you had mentioned above?
Neverthless who are YOU?
Was your mother Jewish prisoner of Austwitz and your father a lagerkappo?
Was you smuggled into US, once a war ended?


You is treating me this way cos' I is black right? 8) ahahah

The "box" is the construct of the modern mindset and its various trappings.
Most of science will sit on the sidelines while the big boys play the real game.
We can go back and look at the truly "great" players and see that they chose to disbelieve the limitations of the science of their day.
These types are of their own mind and not the collective HIVE.

They are the ones who make most of the "breakthroughs" which at the time seem to defy logic.
Isnt it a wonderful thing and at the same time isnt it sad that so many people cannot think outside of the "BOX"?

You are NOT here.
It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby Ingenuity_Gap » Fri 24 Nov 2006, 22:44:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Niagara', 'F')ar from worthless, fusion would be a great energy source for something like the Bussard Ramjet


Maybe you should read more carefully what I wrote about the energy and propellant requirements. Ramjet or not, the energy requirements far exceed what fusion or even antimatter has to offer.

The distances in space are simply too huge for such endeavours.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Niagara', 'I')'m talking about length contraction. As the ship approaches the speed of light the distance to the destination star would contract, shortening the journey considerably.


You're joking, right? Relativity is about the differences in perception between different observers. Length contraction refers to the ship, not the distance to the destination. The distance to the destination stays the same, unless you modify the curvature of space with some type of wormwhole or warp drive. I don't think you can find warp drives at Walmart yet.

Space Travel
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Re: If Astronomers Detected a Signal from an Alien Civilizat

Unread postby Niagara » Sat 25 Nov 2006, 00:53:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ingenuity_Gap', '
')You're joking, right? Relativity is about the differences in perception between different observers. Length contraction refers to the ship, not the distance to the destination. The distance to the destination stays the same, unless you modify the curvature of space with some type of wormwhole or warp drive.


No I wasn't joking.

From the frame of reference fixed to the ship, the ship isn't moving so its length doesn't change. The destination star and everything in between is moving towards the ship at near c speeds. Those distances therefore contract.

Here's an interesting article on the
Barn and Ladder Paradox
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