PeakOil is You
Magic beans
Re: Magic beans
by Ludi » Mon 06 Nov 2006, 22:27:27
I don't mind the hijack, it's certainly relevant to discuss the unsustainable (and cruel) nature of factory farming. Aside from the drawbacks of factory farming, I don't have a problem with this kind of biogas scheme. Just don't be calling it a "closed loop" or a solution to our energy problems, both statements are patently false.
- Ludi
Re: Magic beans
by Heineken » Mon 06 Nov 2006, 23:12:25
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('codesuidae', 'I') just don't think that discussing it in this particular thread is useful.
But the feedlot is an integral part of this proposed system, and the way the animals are treated is inherent to the feedlot. Doesn't that make discussion of how the animals are treated relevant? Reap what you sow.
Beautifully---and sensitively---put, Shanny. Me, I tend to get overwrought by my emotions on this issue.
And thank you, Threadbear, for your comments.
It's so good to know there are others who feel a strong empathy for animals, which our ugly system stomps on like bugs.
Last edited by Heineken on Mon 06 Nov 2006, 23:19:12, edited 1 time in total.
"Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---I & my bro.
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---I & my bro.
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Heineken - Expert
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Re: Magic beans
by Heineken » Mon 06 Nov 2006, 23:18:07
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'I') don't mind the hijack, it's certainly relevant to discuss the unsustainable (and cruel) nature of factory farming. Aside from the drawbacks of factory farming, I don't have a problem with this kind of biogas scheme. Just don't be calling it a "closed loop" or a solution to our energy problems, both statements are patently false.
And of course, as Ludi understands, no real "hijack" was going on or intended. There's plenty of room for comments bearing on all angles of this issue. No need for us to wear blinkers on these forums; without some reasonable flexibility, forums generally die an early death.
"Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---I & my bro.
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---I & my bro.
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Heineken - Expert
- Posts: 7051
- Joined: Tue 14 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
- Location: Rural Virginia
Re: Magic beans
by codesuidae » Mon 06 Nov 2006, 23:35:46
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Shannymara', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('codesuidae', 'I') just don't think that discussing it in this particular thread is useful.
But the feedlot is an integral part of this proposed system, and the way the animals are treated is inherent to the feedlot. Doesn't that make discussion of how the animals are treated relevant?
No, not if I were making the rules. But I'm not, and that is fine, I'm happy to follow the house rules. If anyone cares to know more about my views feel free to send a private message, but a meta-discussion of what is or is not on topic isn't on topic either, so I won't discuss it here.
Here's a diagram of the 'closed-loop' process from the E3 Biofuels website:
The 'closed-loop' bit is obviously just marketing, but the four commercial processes involved (growing grain, factory-farming cattle, producing methane and producing ethanol) are complimentary, so it's definately interesting to see someone attempting to combine them on a large scale.
The combination does make for more efficent use of the fossil fuel fed into the system during grain production. This is good in that it encourages the use of alcohol as a fuel and reduces oil consumption (for what it's worth), but ultimately it is probably not sustainable because of the amount of fuel required to produce the grain for the cattle. While I don't have any specific figures, it seems unlikely that they could truely 'close the loop', cut out the oil, by doing all the grain farming (including soil maintainance) and cattle raising with the fuel produced by the plant and still produce a significant fuel surplus.
If the system works as advertised it might serve a couple of purposes. First, by making more alcohol fuel available at lower cost it helps to encourage the use of renewable, carbon-neutral fuel. Second, the combination of technologies uses less oil than if the plants were run stand-alone. Both of these things serve to reduce the rate at which we use oil, and (hopefully) raises general awareness of the unsustainable nature of our current economy.
It's not perfect, but at least it's a step in the right direction.
For fun I've hacked together a version of the above diagram showing a more complete view of the inputs and outputs.
As it happens Mead Nebraska is about 20 miles from my doorstep, it might be interesting to drive out there and check it out. I wonder if they'd have time to give me a tour.
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