[The_Toecutter]

Yet it is still not possible for consumption to keep increasing, as Jevon's paradox would suggest. Once we reach that geological limit, that is it. No matter what demand for oil is, consumption cannot exceed the maximum rate of extraction. Increasing efficiency, worst case, would let us do more with that limited supply of oil than we otherwise would, but it is impossible to consume more than can be extracted and it is impossible to extract over geological limitations. Jevon's paradox states that consumption increases as efficiency increases, but consumption itself has a limitation.

We will reach a point where efficiency increases cannot increase consumption of a given resource, due to it being impossible to consume more of that resource.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', 'Y')et it is still not possible for consumption to keep increasing, as Jevon's paradox would suggest.

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')evon's Paradox doesn't suggest anything of the sort, nor have I.

[yesplease]

How is Jevon's Paradox applicable? According to Wikipedia it's only valid when supply and efficiency are relatively stable.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wikipedia', 'A')lso, this principle is often referenced in conjunction with Peak oil, to show why conservation of oil will not slow the arrival or the effects of peak oil. However, a key part of Jevons Paradox assumes a relatively steady supply of a given resource.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('The_Toecutter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')evon's Paradox doesn't suggest anything of the sort, nor have I.

[The_Toecutter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')uh ! What part of this don't you yet grasp?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', 'I')f supply suddenly drops faster than we can increase efficiency, Jevon's Paradox isn't applicable because efficiency can't be increased fast enough to drop the price and spur an increase in consumption.

It's only applicable when efficiency and consumption are directly related and relatively stable. This is not the case for personal transportation or the oil supply.

[yesplease]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'A')s you just clearly pointed out, either way, conservation and effciency gains are not a solution.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy not? Because putting something on sale increases it's consumption.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('yesplease', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'A')s you just clearly pointed out, either way, conservation and effciency gains are not a solution.

[JRP3]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hy not? Because putting something on sale increases it's consumption.

[zoidberg]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('CraigX', 'W')e will create small market bio-fuels that won't replace oil, but will lower our dependence on Middle East oil...Dems and Republicans can all agree that is a good thing!

[vision-master]

H
E
M
P
Think about it!

[topic moved to open discussion forum - markl]

[billg]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'H')
E
M
P
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Think about it!

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('billg', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('vision-master', 'H')
E
M
P
.
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Think about it!

[ralfy]

Has anyone found any analysis about the use of hemp to replace oil, i.e., similar to discussions about coal and other resources at Oil Drum?

I think there are different types of hemp, and several of them are not part of illegal drugs. For example, this has been used in the Philippines for more than a century:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abac%C3%A1

for rope, paper, clothing, and even fishing nets. I read recently that it can also be used as a biofuel and can be used to make plastics.

[SeaGypsy]

http://www.hempcar.org/ford.shtml

Henry Ford was an early hemp fuel and plastics innovator.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'F')uel of the Future

When Henry Ford told a New York Times reporter that ethyl alcohol was "the fuel of the future" in 1925, he was expressing an opinion that was widely shared in the automotive industry. "The fuel of the future is going to come from fruit like that sumach out by the road, or from apples, weeds, sawdust -- almost anything," he said. "There is fuel in every bit of vegetable matter that can be fermented. There's enough alcohol in one year's yield of an acre of potatoes to drive the machinery necessary to cultivate the fields for a hundred years."

Ford recognized the utility of the hemp plant. He constructed a car of resin stiffened hemp fiber, and even ran the car on ethanol made from hemp. Ford knew that hemp could produce vast economic resources if widely cultivated.

[ralfy]

I am looking for EROEI studies concerning hemp, which was also requested here:

http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6397 (search for "hemp" in that page)

maybe something like the IEA report on ethanol for Brazil:

http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/10/10/171011/86 (links to the report, with several comments in the entry about hemp)

There are some listed here but for specific states:

http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=3396

One comment writer states here, though, that the EROEI is at best 2.5:1:

http://www.postcarbon.org/article/10415 ... on-and-the

There are some more comments here, but the writer is also looking for BTU figures:

http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/6/26/191251/537

Various writers argue that we may need something like 20:1, with 4 or 5:1 as a best-case scenario for various biofuels, at worse 1.3:1, and likely around 2:1.

Finally, I was prompted to look into this matter further given this recent news report:

http://www.physorg.com/news205599757.html