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Dissillutionment anyone?

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Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby Wickan » Thu 26 Oct 2006, 21:35:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')o you think the political system is broken?
Yes 91% 11582 votes
No 9% 1094 votes

Total: 12676 votes

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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby AgentR » Thu 26 Oct 2006, 21:55:55

Unfortunately, our constitution doesn't really give us much choice between accept it as it is, or disolve the Union the legal way. So given the available options, accepting it as is, ain't too horrible.

Imagine a multiparty parliament in the US, New England liberals Republicans and Californians can vote for Abortion, then NE liberal Reps could team up with Southern Conservatives to beat up on unions; the libertarian dems and Southern Conservatives could team up to beat back gun control; then turn around and team up with NE dems and Californians to legalize pot.

That'd certainly be a wild change. Unfortunately, we can't get there.
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby PolestaR » Fri 27 Oct 2006, 02:36:37

I find it funny that we call what we have a democracy. I mean.. after we vote in John Doe every 4 or so years they do what the fuck they want for 4 or so years. Sure they can be impeached.. maybe.. it would probably take something > ORAL SEX to do it these days.. maybe ANAL... but yeah. Bush has changed laws to suit him.. taken a lot of the power and dictated it. etc.

But my alternative? It was "let more people vote on issues". Say 50K of the best people in the country voting on the patriot act. Or something along those lines..but....

The problem that we will never recover from is the fact that the average person in society is gutless for the most part.. easily led and can't formulate equations for problems. When governments are looking after their #1 customer, the Nascar&Macdonalds fatso pleb... you can't really achieve much as a country or expect great things.
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby gego » Fri 27 Oct 2006, 02:41:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', 'U')nfortunately, our constitution doesn't really give us much choice between accept it as it is, or disolve the Union the legal way. So given the available options, accepting it as is, ain't too horrible.

Imagine a multiparty parliament in the US, New England liberals Republicans and Californians can vote for Abortion, then NE liberal Reps could team up with Southern Conservatives to beat up on unions; the libertarian dems and Southern Conservatives could team up to beat back gun control; then turn around and team up with NE dems and Californians to legalize pot.

That'd certainly be a wild change. Unfortunately, we can't get there.


I don't think that is what government does. What it does is increase restrictions, increase the programs, and increase the intake of money to fund this. Hell, if they kept reducing their power and life kept getting better for citizens, then someone might actually start thinking that they are totally unnecessary and send them home permanently.
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby evilgenius » Fri 27 Oct 2006, 03:44:10

Maybe government is about increasing restrictions in some conservative wet dream. In the rest of the world it is about the will of the people. Just because not all of us are alike doesn't mean that what someone else needs is an unnecessary imposition while what little a conservative yahoo needs is just fine. It is that kind of thinking that has gotten us here in the first place.

I suppose everybody is happy with the system they live under being a kingdom as long as they are king. Don't forget, even kings have to deal with the aristocracy, the aristocracy has to deal with the parliament, parliament has to deal with the people. Historically the biggest problem with democracy is that it has been too responsive to the will of the people,- it has become mob rule. The mob isn't very smart. Throw complexity at it, in the form of law, and it tends to quiet down.
When it comes down to it, the people will always shout, "Free Barabbas." They love Barabbas. He's one of them. He has the same dreams. He does what they wish they could do. That other guy is more removed, more inscrutable. He makes them think. "Crucify him."
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby Carlhole » Fri 27 Oct 2006, 04:13:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', 'U')nfortunately, our constitution doesn't really give us much choice between accept it as it is, or disolve the Union the legal way. So given the available options, accepting it as is, ain't too horrible.

Imagine a multiparty parliament in the US, New England liberals Republicans and Californians can vote for Abortion, then NE liberal Reps could team up with Southern Conservatives to beat up on unions; the libertarian dems and Southern Conservatives could team up to beat back gun control; then turn around and team up with NE dems and Californians to legalize pot.

That'd certainly be a wild change. Unfortunately, we can't get there.


Yes... The vote will never really mean anything. Each new administration seems to begin with revolutionary slogans and end with a blow-job or buggered pages or some Puritanical horseshit scandal designed for the media. It's the way the two-party system works nowadays - of course, in conjunction with campaign finance laws. The old saying, "The people get the government they deserve", has never been truer.

You must have read my post about parlimentary proceedings:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'T')he latest chapter in the book I'm reading talked about how the Isreali Knesset is structured. And even though I'm neither pro or anti-Israel, I have to wonder how our politics in the US would be different if we played by Israeli Knesset rules.

In Israel, voters don't vote for individuals; they vote for parties. As long as a party can muster at least 1.5% of the vote, they can get seats in the 120-person Knesset. Any number of different parties are allowable.

In each party, members are ranked in a formal rankings list. If a given party wins, say, 30% of the national vote in an election, it's corresponding proportion of top-ranking members win seats in the Knesset. So within each party there is tremendous competition to be ranked highly. Thisusually means toeing the party-line rigorously.

However, in the Knesset itself, more than just two parties prevail; There could easily be 5 or more parties whose dogmas differ from one another significantly. This seems like a system that creates a real churn-kettle of ideas - exactly the opposite of the stultifying environment that the US two-party system creates.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'W')hat I dislike about the two-party system is that it tends to define all issues in black/white, yes/no, off/on, right/wrong, left/right terms; Life, higher thought and politics are clearly far more nuanced than that.

...

I'm interested in the ideas that the Libertarian Party puts forth - but that party has virtually no chance of being included in presidential debates or being heard from a mainstream platform. It's considered a non-entity by politicians in Washington even though it is probably the MOST principled party of any ever formed and has probably the most gifted intellectuals willing to lend their minds to its positions.

I'm interested in what the Green Party has to say also but that party has even less chance of being heard in Washington or the nation at large than the Libertarians. And it is odd, since the ideas about global warming, peak oil, ecological destruction vs sustainability, population growth, consumerism, etc. are very powerful ideas which ought to be discussed very seriously. These ideas would seem to be a natural for the Green Party but that party can't seem to incorporate them into an aggressive platform and even if it did, it couldn't get anywhere in Washington.

If the Green Party had access to national funds (as a party in Israel would have under its rules), it would have at least a modest platform from which to bark out warnings about ecological destruction, our ingrained lifestyle dependence on foreign oil, the great possibilities for an American renewable energies program, etc.

As it is, the two-party system that we have in this country becomes deadlocked on issues every time almost by design. This is why we have this Liberal/Conservative counterposition on just about everything.


I'm sick of all that of simple-minded binary discourse ALL the time. I wish other people were sick of it too.
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby AgentR » Tue 31 Oct 2006, 01:30:26

The problem with the binary philosophy is the way its applied in the US.

In the US, if you are against [Gun Control] then you *must* oppose [Big Unions].

If you are for [Abortion] then you must also be for [High Taxes].

If you support increased [Wilderness Designations] you must oppose [Resource Wars].

I think most Americans are so used to these implications that many would say, "So what.".

But if you are an American that is:
Against Gun Control and Abortion, but supports Unions and Wilderness, then you're in no mans land. You either have to pick sides and tolerate the stuff you don't like, or wabble forever back and forth with neither party paying that much attention to you.
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby Carlhole » Tue 31 Oct 2006, 03:17:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', 'B')ut if you are an American that is:
Against Gun Control and Abortion, but supports Unions and Wilderness, then you're in no mans land. You either have to pick sides and tolerate the stuff you don't like, or wabble forever back and forth with neither party paying that much attention to you.


That's right. And that along with campaign finance rules which turn our politicians into craven whores to lobbyists and corporations are what causes the system to be "broken".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Wickan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'D')o you think the political system is broken?
Yes 91% 11582 votes
No 9% 1094 votes

Total: 12676 votes

This QuickVote is not scientific and reflects the opinions of only those Internet users who have chosen to participate. The results cannot be assumed to represent the opinions of Internet users in general, nor the public as a whole. The QuickVote sponsor is not responsible for content, functionality or the opinions expressed therein.


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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby NEOPO » Tue 31 Oct 2006, 11:54:12

Do not confuse this with manmade polarization.
Divided we fall has been the method of thier madness since day one.
It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby AgentR » Tue 31 Oct 2006, 12:31:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'T')hat's right. And that along with campaign finance rules which turn our politicians into craven whores to lobbyists and corporations are what causes the system to be "broken".


Yet no mention of unions I note. "lobbyists and corporations" is the complaint of a democrat partisan. "lobbyists, corporations, and unions" would be a more systemic complaint.
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby Wickan » Tue 31 Oct 2006, 13:36:34

I know this is off-topic, and I don't want it to spread, but I must say: NEOPO, that is the most awesome icon I have seen in a very long time. If you created it, may I post it on my myspace and/or livejournal?
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby gego » Tue 31 Oct 2006, 16:32:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', 'M')aybe government is about increasing restrictions in some conservative wet dream. In the rest of the world it is about the will of the people. Just because not all of us are alike doesn't mean that what someone else needs is an unnecessary imposition while what little a conservative yahoo needs is just fine. It is that kind of thinking that has gotten us here in the first place.


The problem is not just that the right wing yahoo wants to restrict your freedom, but it is also the left wing yahoo who wants to restrict your freedom, and is probably too unaware to realize that his version of rule is really any different, other than in minor degree, than his right wing counterpart.

It sickens me to watch these Republican politicians run for election/reelection, and it is equally sickening to realize that their Democrat opponents are just as evil. And even worse, fully half of the voting age population will select one or the other of these monsters; then you will complain about what they do to you.
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby Carlhole » Tue 31 Oct 2006, 16:42:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Carlhole', 'T')hat's right. And that along with campaign finance rules which turn our politicians into craven whores to lobbyists and corporations are what causes the system to be "broken".


Yet no mention of unions I note. "lobbyists and corporations" is the complaint of a democrat partisan. "lobbyists, corporations, and unions" would be a more systemic complaint.


I finished the history book I was reading on the Middle East. It was so good I wanted to find something else that was a tasty read.

So today, I found a book in the library called "The Frozen Republic: How the Constitution is Paralyzing the Republic" (1996) by Daniel Lazare

It begins by challenging the reader's prior notions about the sacrosanctity of the Constitution and asserts that blindly revering this experimental work of the seventeenth century is sheer mental laziness. That sold me.

And the author writes in an easy interesting style which I find that I am hungrily devouring. The first thesis he draws upon is from Harvard professor Samuel Huntington of "Clash of Civilizations" fame - but he's drawing from a much earlier work of Huntington's from the mid-sixties that asserts that the Constitution was largely drawn from the politics of Elizabethan England.

England had what has been referred to by historians as an "Ancient Constitution".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Lazare', 'H')untington's thesis was simple. Although commonly thought of as despots par excellance, the Tudors actually practiced a politics that was decentralized and pluralist. Unlike France, where power was concentrated in the throne, power among England was balanced in a broad array of governing institutions - the monarchy, the two houses of parliament (House of Lords and House of Commons), and the Church plus a host of lesser bodies such as the great municipal corporations, the Inns of Court (which served as guardians of the common law), and others. Rather than being locked into a fixed structure, the various constituent elements buzzed around each other like bees in a hive. Each was sovereign in its own special sphere, each felt itself heir to ancient rights and privileges that were sacred and immutable, and each was highly jealous of competing institutions, up to and including the Crown. The Ancient Constitution, as it was called, was the web that held it all together, in intricate network of traditions and obligations that was supposedly the basis of English liberty. Unlike the American version, this Ancient Constitution was never written down. Nonetheless, all politically conscious Englishmen bleieved in it and were convinced that it was the key to England's greatness.


This is just a little historical background to shed light on the values and sensibilities of the American framers. They didn't simply pull the Constitution out of their collective genius ass as is often implied in histories of their deliberations.

He goes onto to say, however, that England's politics evolved into a much more efficient model after the Tudors were replaced by the Stuart Kings (you would have to read some more here). However, the Puritans had begun emmigrating to the colonies just before this new, more efficient change in political England took place.

The Elizabethan model described above is one that is very inefficient and adverse to change. It was codified somewhat by the framers into their construction of the Constitution with the idea that this body of law would act as an anchor to the vagaries and vicissitudes of human society going forward.

The upshot of Chapter 1 is that modern America has indeed been left with a seventeenth century "anchor" hanging around its neck! Gridlock, the Huntington says, is intrinsically characteristic of the American Constitution. Gridlock is by design.

Interestingly, the advent of Lobbyists first emerged in England during the Tudor family reign. However, Lobbyism waned dramatically after the improvements in the English political system took place.

Anyway, I'm not really into the meat of the book yet having just checked the book out before my workout this morning. And I'm not really doing the book justice in this post because I can't shorten all the richness of the ideas. It's a good read.

And any person of Conservative or perhaps even Neocon persuasion would no doubt enjoy learning a little more about the political ideas of Samuel Huntington, I would guess.
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby Carlhole » Tue 31 Oct 2006, 18:31:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', 'T')he THEY have essentially positioned THEYselves as gatekeepers ... THEY are the energy meter minders ... the kilowatt bean counters who skim a little off every watt consumed.

Hence only a fuel fool would not be able to comprehend the profound simplicity of the grand 'game'. The rules of engagement are simple.


What a maroon.

Your the first one I've ever put on "ignore".

Sayanara.
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby NEOPO » Tue 31 Oct 2006, 19:13:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'D')o not confuse this with manmade polarization.
Divided we fall has been the method of thier madness since day one.


Yes ... be like fruitflies and MULTIPLY, then THEY DIVIDE, and any remainder THEY SUBTRACT and then ADD to THEY bounty.

The prophets cannot profit if;

a/ people get along
b/ we use very little energy per capita

The THEY have essentially positioned THEYselves as gatekeepers ... THEY are the energy meter minders ... the kilowatt bean counters who skim a little off every watt consumed.

Hence only a fuel fool would not be able to comprehend the profound simplicity of the grand 'game'. The rules of engagement are simple.

Those who control the flow of energy control the sheeple and the seagulliables ... thus THEY desire to create an energy grid or matrix that people become dependant on ...

Do we see significant incentives to free or liberate people from the grid ... to make each of us more sustainable and personally responsible?
i.e. Is the individual encouraged to seek sustainability free of corporate or government 'metering'?

Fact: The world is comprised of namely energy and matter and thermodynamic law is universal and states everything essentially goes from a hot/warm state to a cool/cold state. And our current 'metering' system is setup to profit from this fact.
The THEY, the Energy Thieves do indeed profit mainly from terrestrial resources being consumed by the consumer.
We are the consumers = consumeHER ... i.e. HER is the earth and we do indeed consume the terrestrial resources of the elemental earth.

However to do an end run around THEY who profit from all energy consumed, we must find a way to extract energy from the non-terrestrial resources or grow renewable terrestrial resources.
Growing terrestrial resources?
Will Monsanto force me to buy their seeds?
Like the Iraqi farmer has been forced to!!!

Yes the game is simple if you open your eyes.
THEY first controlled FIRE, then THEY carved up the EARTH.
THEY now have us also paying for clean WATER and AIR. Hence all 4 earthly elements have been claimed by THEY.

Everything that was once accessed for free ... fire, earth, water and air now must be paid for.

Thus the grid or matrix is in place.

namaste

Raphael


After many days of research I must say that I concur.


Carl - dont believe Raph - go look for yourself.

Do you want some links?

Youtube and google video has made a ton material available for our small minds.

I dont think I would have believed 911 conspiracy if not for Loose Change and other media.
A picture is worth a 1000 words indeed.

Installed a cable modem a few months ago BTW which may explain my behavior lately ;-)

Really man you and so many others seem to get some big things yet you stop.
I mean its great that you have come this far but what the hell is it about people that makes them think they are always as far as anyone can go?

here's a video or two.

David Gergen - Alex Jones

New World Order - Time to blow the cover
It is easier to enslave a people that wish to remain free then it is to free a people who wish to remain enslaved.
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby Carlhole » Tue 31 Oct 2006, 19:26:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', '
')here's a video or two.

David Gergen - Alex Jones

New World Order - Time to blow the cover


It's not that I object to the idea of the "energy gatekeeper" thing. It's the long, spacey, off-subject posts that aren't worth reading. I guess I just don't like the incoherence of it. The numerology and occult bullshit alone deserves the "Ignore" button.

The subject of the thread is Broken Government.
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby NEOPO » Tue 31 Oct 2006, 19:39:19

actually its "Dissillusionment anyone?" ;-)

Ok broken government - cool - it still applies.

Bohemian grove is all about the worlds elite government etc etc.
The worlds elite meeting for 2 weeks each year.....doesnt that make alarm bells go off or at least seem very very suspiscious?

Damn man - now I wonder why all of the other smart people around here say nothing about this.....very spooky indeed.

Some people drop a hint or two here and there and maybe thats all it is to them as they have yet to start truly looking but follow the clues and do your homework like we all did before we could dismiss peak oil and then we found that we could not dismiss it..........

Do you have high speed?
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Re: Dissillutionment anyone?

Postby Carlhole » Tue 31 Oct 2006, 20:04:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'S')ome people drop a hint or two here and there and maybe thats all it is to them as they have yet to start truly looking but follow the clues and do your homework like we all did before we could dismiss peak oil and then we found that we could not dismiss it..........

Do you have high speed?


Well, it's just nothing new. It's boring. I've known about the Illuminati, Bohemian Grove, Bilderberger, Trilateral commision, Council on Foreign Relations, Queen of England, Rothchild fucking thing forever. Maybe not quite as long as I've known about UFOs but almost as long.

Alex Jones always raves on and on about it. I'll listen to it sometimes. I actually might order a copy of Carroll Quigley's "Tragedy and Hope" because I'd rather read something higher brow about that kind of subject. But it usually never goes anywhere. It's not useful. It's not interesting...

What I found interesting about this thread originally was that alot of people think that our government is broken. CNN just did a whole special on it.

And when I talk to people about politics, alot of them are members of the Reform Party or they complain about the stultifying two-party system. Several people on both the Right and Left have advocated overhauling the Constitution, which is (usually) held sacrosanct .

So there is no reason why there can't be a discussion about broken government and what would be some ways to "fix" it. that's the direction I thought this thread would go.

I'm more in favor of a Parlimentarian system where a party cold get seats in Congress if it met certain requirements such as a minimum of 5% of the popular vote.

I'd love it if I could create 5 political parties in the US based on the quadrants in The Political Compass: plus an additional one:

- The Fascists - 1st quadrant: Corporatism and Big Government Gone Wild

- The Maoists - 2nd quadrant: Social and Economic Dictatorial Communism

- The Socialists - 3rd quadrant: The Welfare State

- The Anarchists - 4 quadrant: No Holds Barred, Do Your Thing, Man

- The Green Party - It's all about the environment.

Campaign rules: Corporations can donate money to the political system at large ONLY. That means ALL parties divvy up those funds equally.

Individuals can donate up to $5,000 to a maximum of two parties only.

Parties can capitulate to anoter party in an election. For example, the Maoists, having only meager votes, could capitulate to the Socialists.

This is all tongue in cheek but you get the idea. Broken Government? How would you fix it?
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