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Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby holmes » Mon 09 Oct 2006, 17:04:33

I was raised with a gun in my hand. and the tools that never have touched one or even have REAL LIFE experiences want to grab them. usually CITIOTS are the ones bringing gun grab policies. Worthless fetus like humanoids that are trapped in their urban hell holes. Dont spread your virus. already are with sprawl and incessent demands. Stay in your boundariesand step off. Ban yourself why dont u. Your the danger not the gun. and only the honest gun owners are the ones who get shafteed. The crooks not. But then again the loathers idolize felons and the weak and worhtless. twisted to say the least. screaming against the government yet creating more government gestapos. the mental illness runs deep. scary wack jobs.
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby holmes » Mon 09 Oct 2006, 17:05:03

gnm, I LOVE IT! Oh man!
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby venky » Mon 09 Oct 2006, 18:02:46

Oh, keep your guns if it means so much to you. The only people at risk are you yourselves. :roll: And if you feel that the answer is to make gun ownership mandatory...... 8O

Just that having grown up in a gunless society; I was pretty shocked at first to see guns to readily available in the US. I dont think I can understand it..........but its fascinating.......
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby Loki » Mon 09 Oct 2006, 18:05:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('AgentR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Omnitir', 'A')re gun enthusiasts at all concerned by the statistics that guns kept in the home for self protection are more often used to kill friends or family members then they are used to kill in self-defence?


No. That stat includes suicides. Unfortunately, to someone that wishes to commit suicide, method means squat. They use what is avialable. Whether that is a handgun, shotgun, razor, car, pills, rope, ladder, makes little difference.


Yes it does include suicides, but the use of such statistics shows how anti-gun advocates are willing to fudge the facts to demonize guns and gunowners. Despite the widespread ownership of guns, suicide rates in the US are lower than in almost all the European countries and lower than in Japan, Australia, and New Zealand, all of which have very strict gun control policies. (Suicide rates around the world.) The number one method of suicide in Japan is hanging. I suspect there is a strong, statistically significant correlation between the presence of rope at home and suicide-by-hanging in Japan. Should the Japanese therefore ban rope? This is precisely the kind of "logic" people like Omnitir use.

I hate to break it to you Omnitir, but putting severe restrictions on guns has little to no effect on suicides, which make up the bulk of your "gun violence" figures. Rather than shooting themselves, people hang themselves, take pills, jump off of bridges, or run their car into oncoming traffic. After New Zealand instituted its gun licensing scheme in 1992, the overall suicide rate exhibited very little change (it actually went up for a few years, then went back down to pre-gun-control levels). Yes, people shot themselves less, but they still managed to find ways to off themselves. Their suicide rate is still considerably higher than the United States (23.7 vs. 17.6 per 100,000).

A. L. Beautrais, D. M. Fergusson, L. J. Horwood. Firearms legislation and reductions in firearm-related suicide deaths in New Zealand. Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry 40 (2006): 253–259.

But sorry, I know facts don't matter to those who like to demonize gunowners.
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby SDC » Mon 09 Oct 2006, 22:06:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')our premise is flawed. Canada has more firearms per capita than the United States. (31% of homes in Canada, as opposed to 29% in the States) The problem is not the proliferation of firearms, therefore it must be something else.


Infact, if Americans are not responsible with their weapons like the Canadians, all the more reason to take it away from them :roll:


Guns are just a tool. If American culture is such that it promotes a higher homicide rate, and you get rid of the guns, the culture will still be there, and therefore so will the homicides. I mean, I'll admit that a gun, while just a tool, does make certain unsavory acts easier - a nuclear bomb is just a tool, but making those easy to acquire could have dire consequences. However, gun ownership doesn't threaten society as a whole in the way that nuclear weapons do.

Secondly, illegal items will always be available by illegal means. Thus, the people willing to break the law would be able to acquire guns, the normal, law-abiding citizens of the nation would not.

If you ask my opinion, it would be far more effective (not to mention the preservation of a constitutional amendmant) to find a way to cure the culture, if that's even possible. Otherwise, banning guns would make no one safer.
Last edited by SDC on Mon 09 Oct 2006, 22:15:16, edited 1 time in total.
I might be wrong.
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby rogerhb » Mon 09 Oct 2006, 22:12:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SDC', 'S')econdly, illegal items will always be available by illegal means.


So, if we make oil illegal, it will always be available?
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby SDC » Mon 09 Oct 2006, 22:19:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SDC', 'S')econdly, illegal items will always be available by illegal means.


So, if we make oil illegal, it will always be available?


Does virtually every criminal in the entire nation want oil as badly as they want guns?
I might be wrong.
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby rogerhb » Mon 09 Oct 2006, 22:23:14

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SDC', 'D')oes virtually every criminal in the entire nation want oil as badly as they want guns?


They will do....
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby SDC » Mon 09 Oct 2006, 22:36:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SDC', 'D')oes virtually every criminal in the entire nation want oil as badly as they want guns?


They will do....


Oh, I didn't see what you were getting at at first. Yes, I made a fallacy in my reasoning: if we run out of iron and the nessicary components for gunpowder, then it will be impossible to get a gun. Barring that, if you are willing to break the law, there will always be a way. :wink:
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby max_power29 » Tue 10 Oct 2006, 03:20:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('venky', 'H')aving grown up in a gunless society, my introduction to this was in texas when a classmate of mine who owned 5 guns; including a semi-automatic I think 8O , talking casually about buying a new gun; how his roommate had 10 guns...............I just found that kind of shocking.


People that are born and raised as subjects, I think naturally are shocked by freemen. They can't relate at all. Its a clash of culture.

If firearms are such a problem, why is nearly everyone in the gun kontrol crowd for the government having them?

Gun kontrol komrades. DO YOURSELVES AND FREEMEN A FAVOR, PLEASE READ THE SOURCE STUDIES!

http://www.gunowners.org/sourcetb.htm
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby max_power29 » Tue 10 Oct 2006, 03:40:26

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('holmes', 'I') was raised with a gun in my hand. and the tools that never have touched one or even have REAL LIFE experiences want to grab them. usually CITIOTS are the ones bringing gun grab policies. Worthless fetus like humanoids that are trapped in their urban hell holes. Dont spread your virus. already are with sprawl and incessent demands. Stay in your boundariesand step off. Ban yourself why dont u. Your the danger not the gun. and only the honest gun owners are the ones who get shafteed. The crooks not. But then again the loathers idolize felons and the weak and worhtless. twisted to say the least. screaming against the government yet creating more government gestapos. the mental illness runs deep. scary wack jobs.


JIMMY BUFFETT » In The City

As a child on the farm
I was warned of the wiles of the city
Of that demon disguise
As the dirt in the skies of the city

Well they say the proximity warps their minds
Until they're shooting one another just pass the time
And we live it appears
Both in spite and in fear of the city

I was constantly told
How our lives were controlled by the city
How they keep us in debt
With the trends that they set it's a pity

Now the beautiful people in the magazines
Got the normal ones living beyond their means
And the things that they said
Made me go in my head to the city

When I finally came
There's some things still the same in the city
You still lie under the thumb
Of the rich and the young and the pretty

Well they weren't much different than we might act
If there was that many others that closely packed
It's an ancient idea
But it struck me so clear in the city
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby Andrew_S » Tue 10 Oct 2006, 04:13:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')
An armed society is a polite society.



Texan talking. :-D

This is probably the best way in Texas and much of the States. However, what's good in one place isn't necesarily so somewhere else. Fortunately, most of Europe hasn't for a long time needed guns for personal survival but it's going downhill now. In many UK cities armed law-abiding citizens might provide that little extra to improve "politeness" on the streets.
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby Doly » Tue 10 Oct 2006, 05:30:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')America's homicide rate is not significantly higher than other similar countries.


I guess it all depends on what you call "similar". Which are the similar countries?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')I assure you I don't need a firearm, or any weapon for that matter, to kill you.


No. You don't need a car to get anywhere, either. But sure a gun makes it a lot easier to kill and a car a lot easier to go places.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')If it was up to me, I'd require every citizen to carry a firearm at all times.


Why? Because you could accomplish a fast dieoff like that?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')An armed society is a polite society.


<Rolling eyes> How can the Americans still believe that, when they are famously more unpleasant than the British, where even most police don't have guns and even knives are restricted?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')It's when there's an imbalance of power you get abuse.

Advocating guns to create a balance of power is like saying that the way of keeping a building standing and well balanced is giving enough dynamite to everybody that anybody can take off any column that seems to be a problem.

The mutual assured destruction strategy was pure craziness at an international level, and it's pure craziness at a personal level. It's even crazier at a personal level, because while one may assume that the people at the top of the decision-making in a country are generally reasonable, you can't assume that of all human beings.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')Your nanny-state mindset is typical of a conquered people.

WTF??? Sorry, who conquered the British?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')You don't think individuals can be responsible for themselves, & require a parent-government to make decisions for them.

Most individuals can be responsible for themselves. Some aren't. Society has to find ways of dealing with irresponsible people, or those that insist on behaving in ways that are harmful for others. That's what laws are for, mostly. If believe so much in every man for himself, you should suggest abolishing all laws.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')Enjoy your gynocracy... you've earned it.

Matriarchal societies seemed to be doing quite well last time I checked, thank you.
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby max_power29 » Tue 10 Oct 2006, 05:42:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '&')lt;Rolling eyes> How can the Americans still believe that, when they are famously more unpleasant than the British, where even most police don't have guns and even knives are restricted?




International Crime Victim Surveys

"From, of all places, the United Nations, comes this look at crime rates and victim attitudes for 17 major industrialized countries. What is of interest to gun owners is the not-so-surprising revelation that England now has the worst crime rate of all major countries. Following a near-total ban on civilian ownership of firearms, crime in England began to skyrocket. In the UN study, researchers found that nearly 55 crimes are committed per 100 people in England and Wales compared with an average of 35 per 100 in other industrialized countries. England and Wales also have the worst record for "very serious" offenses, recording 18 such crimes for every 100 inhabitants, followed by Australia with 16 (yet another country that has all but banned legitimate self-defense, thus creating a lucrative hunting ground for criminals). In typical UN layered-bureaucracy fashion, the ICVS is funded out of the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, but the link is to the Dutch WODC (Research and Documentation Centre). Study data are available for download in English as Acrobat pdf files. "



The Failed Experiment: Gun Control and Public Safety in Canada, Australia, England and Wales

"Authored by Gary Mauser, professor at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, Canada, this study examines crime trends in Commonwealth countries that have recently introduced firearm regulations: i.e., Great Britain, Australia, and Canada. The widely ignored key to evaluating firearm regulations is to examine trends in total violent crime, not just firearms crime. The United States provides a valuable point of comparison for assessing crime rates because its criminal justice system differs so drastically from those in Europe and the Commonwealth. Perhaps the most striking difference is that qualified citizens in the United States can carry concealed handguns for self-defense. The upshot is that violent crime rates, and homicide rates in particular, have been falling in the United States. The drop in the American crime rate is even more impressive when compared with the rest of the world. The study can be downloaded as a 304K pdf file. "

http://www.gunowners.org/sourcetb.htm

...stupid brainwashed peasants, gun grabbers are all a bunch of gaddamned pussies! OH IM SO AFRAID OF THE SCARY GUNS OOOOOHH, BUT THOSE JACK BOOTED THUGS CAN HAVE THEM< THEY MAKE ME FEEL SAFE AND ALL WARM AND FUZZY INSIDE!
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby Aaron » Tue 10 Oct 2006, 06:27:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')America's homicide rate is not significantly higher than other similar countries.


I guess it all depends on what you call "similar". Which are the similar countries?


See post after your this thread

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')I assure you I don't need a firearm, or any weapon for that matter, to kill you.


No. You don't need a car to get anywhere, either. But sure a gun makes it a lot easier to kill and a car a lot easier to go places.


No... it does not. Apples & oranges...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')If it was up to me, I'd require every citizen to carry a firearm at all times.

Why? Because you could accomplish a fast dieoff like that?

No...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')An armed society is a polite society.



<Rolling eyes> How can the Americans still believe that, when they are famously more unpleasant than the British, where even most police don't have guns and even knives are restricted?

WTF? Sticks & Stones my dear. And Mexicans are lazy, blacks are thieves, & Europeans are holier than thou... hmmm... you may have a point there.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')It's when there's an imbalance of power you get abuse.

Advocating guns to create a balance of power is like saying that the way of keeping a building standing and well balanced is giving enough dynamite to everybody that anybody can take off any column that seems to be a problem.

The mutual assured destruction strategy was pure craziness at an international level, and it's pure craziness at a personal level. It's even crazier at a personal level, because $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'w')hile one may assume that the people at the top of the decision-making in a country are generally reasonable, you can't assume that of all human beings.

Again... good point; as your post clearly demonstrates. :)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')Your nanny-state mindset is typical of a conquered people.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')TF??? Sorry, who conquered the British?

Who hasn't conquered the British at this point?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')You don't think individuals can be responsible for themselves, & require a parent-government to make decisions for them.

Most individuals can be responsible for themselves. Some aren't. Society has to find ways of dealing with irresponsible people, or those that insist on behaving in ways that are harmful for others. That's what laws are for, mostly. $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f believe so much in every man for himself, you should suggest abolishing all laws.

Ok... then... one size fits all eh?

You want the state to assume your personal responsibility. I am saying that it's not possible to transfer personal safety to your government. What do you expect to use against would be assailants... harsh language?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')Enjoy your gynocracy... you've earned it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')atriarchal societies seemed to be doing quite well last time I checked, thank you.

Not what I meant... I have no problem with a strong Matriarchal culture. But you would fit everything into this category... even if it won't fit.

Governments are good at some things... & not so much for others.

I hope you never have the occasion to need a gun to protect a loved one... or be protected.

Here in Texas, criminals stand a good chance of confronting a licensed, trained & armed victim.

Guns are like condoms... rather have one & not need it, than need it, & not have one.

Does gun ownership deserve regulation?

Sure.

Here we presume innocence until proven guilty... you would judge us all incompetent from the get go.

You would disarm responsible citizens, while criminals remain armed & dangerous.

And I call bullshit on that.

(PS - Honerable people may differ... I respect your keen intellect & sharp observations... mostly)
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby Cloud9 » Tue 10 Oct 2006, 06:40:50

http://www.catsprn.com/u_loot_we_shoot.htm

My street.
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby max_power29 » Tue 10 Oct 2006, 06:50:59

Northern Ireland Affairs -- Fourth Report

More United Kingdom data. Found here is an interesting and comprehensive dichotomy involving the differing approaches to fireams ownership in Northern Ireland and England itself. Of particular interest is the "Minutes of Evidence" section, whereby Members of the House of Commons respond to questions about just how trustworthy folks are with these pesky guns.

http://www.gunowners.org/sourcetb.htm
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby IslandCrow » Tue 10 Oct 2006, 06:52:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', '
')Guns are like condoms...


Interesting analogy....sort of grabs the attention, but it is misleading as the purpose of condoms (at least in the face of HIV) is to protect BOTH parties, (or in the case of preventing unwanted pregnancy) to protect the other party, whereas a gun is to protect the party holding the gun.
We should teach our children the 4-Rs: Reduce, Reuse, Recycle and Rejoice.
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby max_power29 » Tue 10 Oct 2006, 06:53:58

Dr. John R. Lott of More Guns, Less Crime fame teamed with John E. Whitley of the University of Adelaide on this study of more than twenty years worth of "Lock Up Your Safety" madatory gun storage laws. They found no support at all for the usual gun banner claims that such laws will reduce juvenile accidental gun deaths and suicides. On the contrary, the data suggest that these laws appear to impair the ability of citizens to properly use their guns in self-defense. During the first five full years after the passage of the safe storage laws, the group of fifteen states that adopted these laws faced an annual average increase of over 300 more murders, 3,860 more rapes, 24,650 more robberies, and over 25,000 more aggravated assaults. On average, the annual costs borne by victims averaged over $2.6 billion as a result of lost productivity, out-of-pocket expenses, medical bills, and property losses. The link is to the abstract; the actual study available for
download is a 238K Acrobat pdf file.
http://www.gunowners.org/sourcetb.htm
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Re: Guns in classrooms: has the USA gone totally insane?

Unread postby max_power29 » Tue 10 Oct 2006, 06:54:46

The Impact of Gun Laws on Police Deaths
This groundbreaking study, published in The Journal of Law and Economics, has discovered that states implementing concealed carry laws benefit the safety of police. The author, David B. Mustard of the University of Georgia's Department of Economics, found that allowing law-abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons "does not endanger the lives of officers, and may help reduce their risk of being killed." This is an Acrobat pdf file.

http://www.gunowners.org/sourcetb.htm
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