[FourOfSwords]

With the ratification of the Military Commissions Act on Sept 27/28 it appears that the American Republic has died. The apparent(yet downplayed) sweeping powers granted to the President in time of national emergency/crisis/war have effectively stripped away many rights assured under the Constituation. Even to the point where, as interpreted by the President himself, dissent by citizens can be considered an act of terrorism, and fall under the Military Commissions Act. Despite his questionable intellect, Mr Bush must have been reading his history books of the Roman Empire...he took a page right out of Augustus Caesars text....VALE CIVITAS!
Here lies the corpse of the Republic...
Alex.

[gnm]

Its hard to read. I'm not sure specifically if it really changes things much. But it does use the term "alien" which is earlier defined as non US citizen when Haebus Corpus is suspended so I would assume that has not been changed for US citizens.

And theres this...
`Sec. 948r. Compulsory self-incrimination prohibited; treatment of statements obtained by torture and other statements' blah blah blah

Which has actually been suspended for years since all US citizens are extorted/required to provide evidence against themselves (try not signing your tax return).

And of course due process has long been dead under assest forfeiture/seziure laws for the almighty "war on drugs" which has failed miserably in its proclaimed intent but has been amazingly succesful as a blanket reason to do whatever they feel like.

Republic dead from this? More like kicking a dead horse I think...

-G

[Aaron]

What is this republic of which you speak?

Some new company?

United Colors of Benetton we Stand.

In HawkMan we Trust.

We, the wealthy land-owners, in order to form a more perfect coporation, establish commerce, insure domestic profitability, provide for the common suspense, promote the general warfare, and secure the blessings of superiority to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of Me Love You Long Time.

[holmes]

It was dead before it was alive.

[NEOPO]

Ya know - 2 years ago this bothered me much more then it does today.

I just dont "go there" anymore.
Buncha hypocrites with some good ideas.
Some of us feel so strongly about how fucked it is and how good we want it to be our anger makes us seem un american.
Our flag is either upside down, on fire or both!!
SOS!!! SOS!!!

When I awoke to planes slamming into this countries towers I thought to myself "what have we done?".

Now that I know why its happening I am less and less bothered with the fact that the grand experiment seems to be coming to a close.
A house is only as good as its foundation and this one was built on bones.
Maybe it was never a republic in the first place?

I am having a Hari Seldon esqe moment:

The Foundation Series

uhm......... foundation anyone?

I mean really - F an ecovillage when we could have an eco city or even eventually an eco state!!

scattered we are weak - together we are strong.

Everyone here pretty much agrees "they" wont get it and their handlers dont see it the way we do.

I am left with little else to ponder.
stay and attempt to fix it some say.
I have been thinking that for most of my adult life yet I find myself thinking otherwise at this point in time.

We have taken down some large beasts before but this fucker has 7 heads and an army of minions - wheres the army of undead when we need them?
Its worse because this beast is us!!!

Just like the PO club idea and leadership - I dont need a hari seldon to lead me yet some people do.
k then form a group - elect someone and lets go!!!!
<salivates pondering the idea of a large eco movement>
Then the eco meme could be spread out in all directions!! muahah

I cannot continue to care about those who dont.... for very much longer and at that point I risk becoming completely apathetized.....is that a word?

big deep breaths oam oam oam
bye republic - nice knowing ya.

[FourOfSwords]

Aaron and NEOPO, I understand your points, it's not lost upon me. No founding members of any Republic in history could ever envision what could eventually/possibly happen to their grand dream. All things evolve, or devolve in this case, but it does not make the original dream/ideal of a Republic less valid or noble. Great things have been done by not so great people acting in unison to achieve a dream, an ideal, a 'whisp so delicate, that mere mention of it's name is enough to make it disappear'...
Many American posters here, seem so angry/fustrated/immersed in angst...it comes out in the 'tone' of their posts and responses.
Aaron, with your caption 'at my sig...release hell, and NEOPO with your reference to Seldon and the Foundation Series, it appears you both still 'believe' or want to believe in something bigger and better, and that 'should' have been. You can't have watched Gladiator and not felt at some level the emotions of what were going on then with the Roman Empire...
You could not have read the Foundation Series without understanding it's underlying meaning, and draw similar conclusions about America's plight today.
I don't mean to discredit your or others feelings and views on these awful events that are hurdling towards us and what befell America...even at this late date there is no great shame in standing up and saying that you are proud, proud to see things as they REALLY are, but still proud to be a citizen of a once great country.
Sorry to ramble on so...
Alex

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', ' ')wheres the army of undead when we need them?

[evilmonkeyspanker]

Hey guys do what what I plan, Just sit back watch it unfold and then laugh at everyone who starts freaking out. Keep Laughing and laughing until someone upset over everything starts a fire that burns down your neighborhood with you in it.

[Aaron]

Don't get me wrong... I love my country & would defend it if called.

Part of what I'm willing to defend is my right to run my fool American mouth off as I see fit. Long as I don't break the law...

It's my tongue in cheek way of sayin I don't agree with a bunch of the nonsense my elected officials are doing.

Not that I don't support our republic itself.

[NEOPO]

Isnt it hard to say Aaron? as defending america has a much more diverse meaning now then before and it seems liable to continue growing.

If our prez says that "saying the wrong thing is terror ism" then wouldnt we be defending american by silencing tho people saying the wrong thing?
Locking them up in prison etc etc?
Taking their internet away ;-(

Damnit if they havent found a way to use almost everything against us....

since i am now a youtube addict i wish to share and end my rants with something relevant.
Audioslave Doesn't Remind Me
even you old timers might like this stuff as it may not remind you of ......anything.

Question of the day: How many of us will this republic have to fail before we decide or are forced to try something different?

[firestarter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FourOfSwords', 'A')aron and NEOPO, I understand your points, it's not lost upon me. No founding members of any Republic in history could ever envision what could eventually/possibly happen to their grand dream.

[PenultimateManStanding]

I do think that if we lost the republic we might not know for a long time. For instance, if NEOPO is right about the Diebold machines, it might not make the common knowledge arena and be stuck in conspiracy theory land for a long time. Same for 911, 2/3 of the country doesn't believe the government had anything to do with it. Afterall, there were the hijackers. The reality could be kept so tightly under wraps that it could be a generation or two before the truth is known. On the other hand, and this is what I think, the government is just not as competent as some of the conspiracists think it is. They will probably fall flat on their faces when peak oil begins to hit home. They're just a bunch of people working in a system that was designed by much better men two centuries ago. When we start worshipping the President, and he gives thumbs up or down for TV gladiators, then we can say yep, the Republic is over.

[Atlantean_Relic]

Lies with a grain of truth are the easiest to keep going.

[firestarter]

PMS, the republic died -- apologies to Harry Jaffe-- circa 1865. The coup de gras was the Fourteenth Amendment in 1866. What we've been left with since, in the words of Harvard professor, Raoul Berger, is essentially a "government by judiciary".

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'P')MS, the republic died -- apologies to Harry Jaffe-- circa 1865. The coup de gras was the Fourteenth Amendment in 1866. What we've been left with since, in the words of Harvard professor, Raoul Berger, is essentially a "government by judiciary".

[NEOPO]

PMS - you fear only the truth ......now plug the feeding tube back up and return to your previous state of slumber.....

How long will our leaders try to hide behind incompetence and we continue to allow it?
How long will we pretend that everything bad that happens was a mistake?
No wonder "state of denial" is EVERYWHERE and how ironic indeed.
We not only lie but we also try to believe it.
We lie to ourselves.

Clip from V for Vendetta

[PenultimateManStanding]

I have no fear of the truth. It's easy to level that charge at somebody. Some people are too sure they have it at their behest. Self-delusion is common enough.

[firestarter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'P')MS, the republic died -- apologies to Harry Jaffe-- circa 1865. The coup de gras was the Fourteenth Amendment in 1866. What we've been left with since, in the words of Harvard professor, Raoul Berger, is essentially a "government by judiciary".

[PenultimateManStanding]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('firestarter', 'P')MS, the republic died -- apologies to Harry Jaffe-- circa 1865. The coup de gras was the Fourteenth Amendment in 1866. What we've been left with since, in the words of Harvard professor, Raoul Berger, is essentially a "government by judiciary".

[firestarter]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')re you saying that the amendment undermined States' rights? If so, couldn't it be interpreted that States can't oppress the descendants of slaves? It was the resolution of the slave issue.