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THE Middle Class Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: Middle class, living beyond thier means or victim....

Postby vision-master » Fri 23 Jun 2006, 09:27:26

My Dad always told me- get a Government job. If it wasn't for the 17 years in Civil Service, I'd be fooked!
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Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Finds

Postby Polemic » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 16:05:17

Prices and corporate profits are up as wages stagnate and Americans are forced ever deeper into debt.


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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby Zardoz » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 16:45:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ommenting on the study, SEIU Labor Union President Andy Stern said, "Of the total amount of our economy and income, we have the greatest share going to profits in modern history and the least amount going to wages in modern history."

In other words, we're headed towards becoming a third-world nation.
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby gego » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 16:51:12

A symptom of slavery is what you are observing. You know the routine; walks like a duck, squaks like a duck, is a duck.

What slave society has a large and prosperous middle class? None; rather you see a large and poverty sticken underclass, a small middle class, and a small ruling class with most of the wealth.
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby Aaron » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 17:11:22

I need CNN to tell me this?

pfft...

Perhaps next they will announce that water's wet?
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby DantesPeak » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 17:28:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Aaron', 'I') need CNN to tell me this?

pfft...

Perhaps next they will announce that water's wet?


Don't need no CNN, the national savings rate is negative. When you consider there are a fair amount of people who are actually saving money, this means that a majority of Americans are further down the toilet every month. Albeit this does not include the appreciation - or depreciation - of one's home value (if they have one).
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby mgibbons19 » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 17:30:17

st peter dont you call me cause i cant go
i owe my soul to the company store
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby WildRose » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 18:43:55

My family is experiencing this as a gradual squeeze: insurance goes up, utilities increase, food costs rise, school fees higher than last year.

My most recent raise: 0.17/hour.
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby ClubOfRomeII » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 18:43:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Polemic', 'P')rices and corporate profits are up as wages stagnate and Americans are forced ever deeper into debt.




Good article. I have an objection to the idea that anyone is "forced" into debt though. If you don't want to borrow....don't. If you are living beyond your means...stop. If you are unhappy with your paycheck from macdonalds, go LEARN something of value, the knowing of which someone will pay you more than macdonalds does. I don't know about anyone else, but my time digging ditches and cleaning toilets in college taught me more about why I wanted to not be at the bottom of the economic foodchain better than anything else in my life.

Sounds like personal responsibility for ones actions is being discounted as to WHY people are in debt. I realize keeping up with the Jones's is important, but we aren't FORCED to do so, we are ignorant and silly and run out and just DO it. Shame on us, but lets not try and pretend that peer pressure and what society wants to advertise us into doing is a substitute for clear thinking about what we can, and can not, afford.

Anyway, I can agree that as Americans standards of living are forced downward, what we see happening in relation to debt is hardly a surprise.
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby Ludi » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 19:10:57

Most serious debts are caused by unfortunate life events such as illness/injury, divorce, or death in the family. See bankruptcy statistics.
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby WildRose » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 19:13:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Polemic', 'P')rices and corporate profits are up as wages stagnate and Americans are forced ever deeper into debt.




Good article. I have an objection to the idea that anyone is "forced" into debt though. If you don't want to borrow....don't. If you are living beyond your means...stop. If you are unhappy with your paycheck from macdonalds, go LEARN something of value, the knowing of which someone will pay you more than macdonalds does. I don't know about anyone else, but my time digging ditches and cleaning toilets in college taught me more about why I wanted to not be at the bottom of the economic foodchain better than anything else in my life.

Sounds like personal responsibility for ones actions is being discounted as to WHY people are in debt. I realize keeping up with the Jones's is important, but we aren't FORCED to do so, we are ignorant and silly and run out and just DO it. Shame on us, but lets not try and pretend that peer pressure and what society wants to advertise us into doing is a substitute for clear thinking about what we can, and can not, afford.

Anyway, I can agree that as Americans standards of living are forced downward, what we see happening in relation to debt is hardly a surprise.



ClubOfRomeII,

I certainly agree with a lot of your post. Some people take on too much debt. Some could use further education to increase their earning power. It is very tempting to live beyond one's means, and many of us have had to learn a lesson or two in this regard.

However, I believe a lot of people are teetering on the high cost of living. My family could be a case study. My husband has a well-paying job and mine's not bad, and we have a moderate amount of debt. We're raising three kids. We don't keep up with the Joneses - we're not even in the running! But the value of our income is steadily declining with rising costs of basic needs. We're living quite modestly and don't have any expensive habits.

Honestly, I hear the same lament from most of the people I know, who are, on average, lower middle class to middle class people.
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby DantesPeak » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 19:25:35

I don't deny that individual effort is very important. But our energy based economy is adjusting to the tightening energy supply/demand situation even before the arrival of the true peak in oil. Some acheivers still may come out ahead, but there are going to be mostly losers.

Keep in mind that commonly used GDP figures include vast amounts for military spending in the ME, which doesn't go back into the hands of ordinary Americans. The Fed already has stated that the average per capita, inflation adjusted wage since 2000 is going down - albeit slowly. Whether that is a sign of approaching PO or economic weakness, it makes you wonder exactly how bad things will get after PO.
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby ClubOfRomeII » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 19:38:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', 'I') don't deny that individual effort is very important. But our energy based economy is adjusting to the tightening energy supply/demand situation even before the arrival of the true peak in oil. Some acheivers still may come out ahead, but there are going to be mostly losers.



See, considering the length of time that the American standard of living has been decreasing, I have a very difficult time wrapping PO into America shipping manufacturing jobs as fast as possible overseas. I understand the more RECENT effects of inflation being energy pricing related to some extent, but I think the fundamentals of an American declining standard of living has been going on alot longer than the entire PO tie in, which appears to be more of a recent event.
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby DantesPeak » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 19:55:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', 'I') don't deny that individual effort is very important. But our energy based economy is adjusting to the tightening energy supply/demand situation even before the arrival of the true peak in oil. Some acheivers still may come out ahead, but there are going to be mostly losers.



See, considering the length of time that the American standard of living has been decreasing, I have a very difficult time wrapping PO into America shipping manufacturing jobs as fast as possible overseas. I understand the more RECENT effects of inflation being energy pricing related to some extent, but I think the fundamentals of an American declining standard of living has been going on alot longer than the entire PO tie in, which appears to be more of a recent event.


Good point, inflation adjusted average wages per capita peaked long ago - but occasionally struggled to recover some.

You may think it's coincidental that US peak oil, peak average inflation adjusted wages per capita, and the collapse of the US based Bretton Woods all ocurred about the same time - 1972 to 1974. But I don't.
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby Zardoz » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 20:16:55

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '.')..You may think it's coincidental that US peak oil, peak average inflation adjusted wages per capita, and the collapse of the US based Bretton Woods all ocurred about the same time - 1972 to 1974. But I don't.

Hmmmm... Most interesting, indeed.
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby ClubOfRomeII » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 23:27:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('DantesPeak', '
')You may think it's coincidental that US peak oil, peak average inflation adjusted wages per capita, and the collapse of the US based Bretton Woods all ocurred about the same time - 1972 to 1974. But I don't.


While I am as wildly interested in coincidences as the next guy, I find it a bit of a stretch to connect peak oil in the US 35 years ago with per capita income any more than I would connect peak oil in Ohio in 1903 or so with the inability of the Wright brothers to fly further than 900 feet on Dec 17th of that year.

Look, I'm quite certain, if I quickly consume a fifth of vodka, have the wife whack me in the head with a hammer, and drop just a wee' bit'o acid, I can imitate Ruppert in both assembling random facts inaccurately to prove that 9-11 was directly caused by some coincidental string of events stretching back to Dick Cheney as a junior staffer in the Nixon administration.

But I've got to draw a line somewhere...plus it would hurt to have the wife whack me in the head, so I'll just venture that coincidences do not a proof make.
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby DantesPeak » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 00:04:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')otal unadjusted US wages and salaries grew from $465 billion in 1968 to $5249 billion in 2004, a growth factor of 11.29. If we divide by the population growth factor of 1.48, we get a nominal per-capita wage growth of 7.62.

The aggregate per-capita income figures stated above apply to the population in general, both working and non-working. We now have a much greater percentage of the adult population working as shown by the civilian labor force which grew by a factor of 1.91. This means that per-worker income growth (real individual wages and salaries) is in decline.


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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby americandream » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 00:29:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Polemic', 'P')rices and corporate profits are up as wages stagnate and Americans are forced ever deeper into debt.




Good article. I have an objection to the idea that anyone is "forced" into debt though. If you don't want to borrow....don't. If you are living beyond your means...stop. If you are unhappy with your paycheck from macdonalds, go LEARN something of value, the knowing of which someone will pay you more than macdonalds does. I don't know about anyone else, but my time digging ditches and cleaning toilets in college taught me more about why I wanted to not be at the bottom of the economic foodchain better than anything else in my life.

Sounds like personal responsibility for ones actions is being discounted as to WHY people are in debt. I realize keeping up with the Jones's is important, but we aren't FORCED to do so, we are ignorant and silly and run out and just DO it. Shame on us, but lets not try and pretend that peer pressure and what society wants to advertise us into doing is a substitute for clear thinking about what we can, and can not, afford.

Anyway, I can agree that as Americans standards of living are forced downward, what we see happening in relation to debt is hardly a surprise.
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby americandream » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 00:35:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ClubOfRomeII', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Polemic', 'P')rices and corporate profits are up as wages stagnate and Americans are forced ever deeper into debt.




Good article. I have an objection to the idea that anyone is "forced" into debt though. If you don't want to borrow....don't. If you are living beyond your means...stop. If you are unhappy with your paycheck from macdonalds, go LEARN something of value, the knowing of which someone will pay you more than macdonalds does. I don't know about anyone else, but my time digging ditches and cleaning toilets in college taught me more about why I wanted to not be at the bottom of the economic foodchain better than anything else in my life.

Sounds like personal responsibility for ones actions is being discounted as to WHY people are in debt. I realize keeping up with the Jones's is important, but we aren't FORCED to do so, we are ignorant and silly and run out and just DO it. Shame on us, but lets not try and pretend that peer pressure and what society wants to advertise us into doing is a substitute for clear thinking about what we can, and can not, afford.

Anyway, I can agree that as Americans standards of living are forced downward, what we see happening in relation to debt is hardly a surprise.


Ever heard of peer pressure (advertising and other associated devices used to part folks from their dollars)...from folks exactly like YOU...given to preaching from a pulpit of rectitude.

No doubt there's some smart schmuck lecturing his neighbours...that good parents get their kids the best of everything.
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Re: Middle Class Families in Worse Shape Than Ever, Study Fi

Postby rwwff » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 01:27:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('americandream', 'N')o doubt there's some smart schmuck lecturing his neighbours...that good parents get their kids the best of everything.

Around here we just reinforce each other, that good parents say "no", often, and more often than not just for the sake of saying "no".

The kids still end up with too much c*** if you ask me; but at least they are used to not getting everything they ask for.
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