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What is the Sun?

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

What is the Sun?

A nuclear fusion reation.
17
No votes
An anode for galactic currents.
2
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Something else / Whatever.
3
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Total votes : 22

What is the Sun?

Unread postby Bleep » Sun 01 Oct 2006, 20:33:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')url=http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050427sun.htm]The Electric Glow of the Sun[/url]

...skip...

Today, astronomers assure us that the most fundamental question is answered. The Sun is a thermonuclear furnace. The ball of gas is so large that astronomers envision pressures and densities within its core sufficient to generate temperatures of about 16 million K—producing a continuous “controlled” nuclear reaction.

Most astronomers and astrophysicists investigating the Sun are so convinced of the fusion model that only the rarest among them will countenance challenges to the underlying idea. Standard textbooks and institutional research, complemented by a chorus of scientific and popular media, “ratify” the fusion model of the Sun year after year by ignoring evidence to the contrary.

A growing group of independent researchers, however, insists that the popular idea is incorrect. These researchers say that the Sun is electric. It is a glow discharge fed by galactic currents. And they emphasize that the fusion model anticipated none of the milestone discoveries about the Sun, while the electric model predicts and explains the very observations that posed the greatest quandaries for solar investigation.

More than 60 years ago, Dr. Charles E. R. Bruce, of the Electrical Research Association in England, offered a new perspective on the Sun. An electrical researcher, astronomer, and expert on the effects of lightning, Bruce proposed in 1944 that the Sun’s "photosphere has the appearance, the temperature and the spectrum of an electric arc; it has arc characteristics because it is an electric arc, or a large number of arcs in parallel." This discharge characteristic, he claimed, "accounts for the observed granulation of the solar surface." Bruce’s model, however, was based on a conventional understanding of atmospheric lightning, allowing him to envision the “electric” Sun without reference to external electric fields.

...skip...

Sunspots, prominences, coronal mass ejections, and a host of other features require ever more complicated guesswork on behalf of the fusion model. But this is the way an anode in a coronal glow discharge behaves!

In the electrical model, the Sun is the “anode” or positively charged body in the electrical exchange, while the "cathode" or negatively charged contributor is not a discrete object, but the invisible “virtual cathode” at the limit of the Sun’s coronal discharge. (Coronal discharges can sometimes be seen as a glow surrounding high-voltage transmission wires, where the wire discharges into the surrounding air). This virtual cathode lies far beyond the planets. In the lexicon of astronomy, this is the “heliopause.” In electrical terms, it is the cellular sheath or “double layer” separating the plasma cell that surrounds the Sun ("heliosphere”) from the enveloping galactic plasma.

...skip...
[hr]

Back in the bad old days when people thought the universe revolved around the Earth it became necessary to make up truly absurd things like epicycles to attempt to cling to the wrong idea.

In defending the six places that the nuclear fusion model fails to describe the sun scientists clutch at such straws:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')url=http://www.electric-cosmos.org/sun.htm]THE ELECTRIC SUN[/url]
1. Missing Neutrinos - Some solar neutrinos have indeed been observed - but less than half the number required if the fusion reaction really is the main source of the Sun's energy production. But, the negative results from the neutrino experiments have resulted not in any re-examination of solar models. Rather, an intense theoretical effort to discover new properties that solar neutrinos "must have" has occurred. As a result of this effort, it has just (June 2001) been announced by the Sudbury Neutrino Observatory (SNO) in Canada that neutrinos have mass and can change "flavor". This supposedly accounts for why they have not been fully observed previously. However, several important questions remain to be answered about the method that was used by the SNO researchers in arriving at their conclusions. Of course, whether neutrinos actually do change "flavor" or not has no bearing whatever on the validity of the Electric Sun model. The neutrino problem is a hurdle only for the standard fusion model. In the Electric Sun model there is no energy produced in the core - radiant energy is released at the surface and not by nuclear fusion, but by electric arc discharge. So, there is no "missing neutrino" problem for the electric Sun model.
Epicycle number 1: neutrinos with mass and flavor changes.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2'). Convection of Energy Up from the Core - Sunspots are depressions in the photosphere - places where we can see down deeper into the surface of the Sun. The temperature of the umbrae (dark center of the spots) is typically around 3800 K to 4000 K. This is 2000 K lower than the temperature of the photospheric surface itself (about 6000 K). If energy is really flowing upward toward the surface of the Sun from a 6 million K core, these holes in the photosphere should be much hotter than the outer layers of the photosphere, not cooler. The usual explanation of this is that strange magnetic waves down below the surface prevent heat energy from flowing up at these points.
Epicycle number 2: energy from the core of the sun being blocked by "strange magnetic waves".$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')3. Temperature Minimum below the Corona ... Near the Sun's surface, its atmosphere is coolest - the photosphere - only about 6000K! (And cooler yet at the deepest part of its sunspots.) But then, as we go farther away from the photospheric surface, the temperature of the atmosphere first begins to rise smoothly and then abruptly jumps wildly to about 2 million K in the tenuous lower corona. ... mainstream astronomers invoke the idea that magnetic loops and MHD waves somehow throw heat out into the lower corona. (The question of exactly what mechanism converts thermal energy directly into magnetic fields inside the Sun and then performs the inverse operation up in the lower corona is not answered.)
Epicycle number 3: magnetic loops and MHD waves to make sure the sun is hotter on the outside than the inside.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '4'). Acceleration of the Solar "Wind" Ions - Dr. Peter T. Gallagher from the Big Bear Solar Observatory presented a seminar on Observations and Modeling of the Corona and Solar Wind. "Understanding the physics of coronal heating and solar wind acceleration remains one of the unsolved problems of solar physics. It is believed that the corona is heated by either high frequency MHD waves or by many small scale reconnections, but the exact heating mechanisms and how they relate to the acceleration of coronal plasma are still uncertain."
Epicycle number 4: MHD waves to make the solar wind speed up as it leave the sun$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '5'). Periodic Fluctuations in the Sun's Output and Size - In order to make mathematical models of the Sun's interior tally with experimental data, a lower value for G, Newton's gravitational constant, has to be used.
Epicycle number 5: a special gravitational constant just for the sun.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '6'). Why Does the Sun Rotate Faster at its Equator than at Higher Latitudes? - This is yet another question that the accepted thermonuclear model has no answer for.
Epicycle number 6: we haven't come up with epicycle number 6 but we are sure it will be a good one.
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Re: What is the Sun?

Unread postby evilmonkeyspanker » Sun 01 Oct 2006, 20:40:20

uhm, and this important? Why?

I mean seriously does it really change anything?

I think these scientist had better start working on some better weapons so which we can kill ourselves.
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Re: What is the Sun?

Unread postby Bleep » Sun 01 Oct 2006, 20:49:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilmonkeyspanker', 'u')hm, and this important? Why?
Because it demonstrates the human capacity to cling to a wrong idea and defend it against a much more elegant idea.
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Re: What is the Sun?

Unread postby evilmonkeyspanker » Sun 01 Oct 2006, 20:53:12

The sun is just brahman anyway.
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Re: What is the Sun?

Unread postby NEOPO » Sun 01 Oct 2006, 21:00:55

I get the feeling we are about to learn something and once we plug it into all of the other theories it will change everything and leave us with more questions then when we first began to look.

Its really a beautiful thing man ;-)
1 answer = 10 questions

The sun is our father and the earth is our mother or the light bulb and the lilly pad if you prefer ;-)

I can imagine the sun having a swiftly forming and disintegrating crust of sorts yeah and many other possibilities...
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Re: What is the Sun?

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Sun 01 Oct 2006, 21:04:27

While I find this concept very interesting, I don't have the scientific background to understand what the heck we're talking about.

I only took one year of physics and we focused mostly on gravity, projectiles, electricity, magnets, and stuff like that.

I guess I should have signed up for astro-physics...

So yeah, if you can explain the Electric Sun thing in a paragraph or two, I'm all ears.
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Re: What is the Sun?

Unread postby Bleep » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 08:09:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'S')o yeah, if you can explain the Electric Sun thing in a paragraph or two, I'm all ears.
Want a simple explanation? Imagine the "northern lights" (aurora borealis) on steroids happening almost everywhere always on the sun's surface. I say "almost everywhere" because sun spots are where it's not happening. They are were you can see down into the sun where the relatively measly amount of heat that is leaking out of the sun's fusion reaction can be seen. The fusion allows the formation of helium, and heavier elements over time.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')url=http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2005/arch05/050427sun.htm]The Electric Glow of the Sun[/url]

...skip...

1. Missing Neutrinos - Some solar neutrinos have indeed been observed - but less than half the number required if the fusion reaction really is the main source of the Sun's energy production.
So maybe I should have put a poll answer of "a measly fusion reation coated with a strong eletrical reaction".

In the case of the "northern lights" (aurora borealis) the solar wind (sun's atmosphere) hitting the Earth is the cause. In the case of the sun it's the galaxy's "atmosphere" hitting the sun's atmosphere.$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')In the electrical model, the Sun is the “anode” or positively charged body in the electrical exchange, while the "cathode" or negatively charged contributor is not a discrete object, but the invisible “virtual cathode” at the limit of the Sun’s coronal discharge. (Coronal discharges can sometimes be seen as a glow surrounding high-voltage transmission wires, where the wire discharges into the surrounding air). This virtual cathode lies far beyond the planets. In the lexicon of astronomy, this is the “heliopause.” In electrical terms, it is the cellular sheath or “double layer” separating the plasma cell that surrounds the Sun ("heliosphere”) from the enveloping galactic plasma.

In an electric universe, such cellular forms are expected between regions of dissimilar plasma properties. According to the glow discharge model of the Sun, almost the entire voltage difference between the Sun and its galactic environment occurs across the thin boundary sheath of the heliopause. Inside the heliopause there is a weak but constant radial electrical field centered on the Sun. A weak electric field, immeasurable locally with today's instruments but cumulative across the vast volume of space within the heliosphere, is sufficient to power the solar discharge.

The visible component of a coronal glow discharge occurs above the anode, often in layers. The Sun’s red chromosphere is part of this discharge. (Unconsciously, it seems, the correct electrical engineering term was applied to the Sun’s corona.) Correspondingly, the highest particle energies are not at the photosphere but above it. The electrical theorists see the Sun as a perfect example of this characteristic of glow discharges—a radical contrast to the expected dissipation of energy from the core outward in the fusion model of the Sun.
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Re: What is the Sun?

Unread postby mekrob » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 12:00:36

How did I know Raphael was going to post on this?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')How does a binary star system embrace the 'electric' not 'fusion' sun model?


Good question. Another:

How does this 'new' theory explain the formation of the planets and the ever-changing universe? While there may be a few holes in the fusion, it does fit well into the formation of planets and solar systems.

How does this theory explain the fact that most of the H+ is in the Sun, while most of the elements of the planets are heavier?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o, there is no "missing neutrino" problem for the electric Sun model.


Forgive my ignorance of the subject, but I don't believe neutrinos are all that natural. If that is so, then how would the electric arc explain the presence of neutrinos coming directly from the Sun?
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Re: What is the Sun?

Unread postby lateralus » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 13:35:12

A big orange thing that makes my plants grow.
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Re: What is the Sun?

Unread postby Carlhole » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 13:54:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('lateralus', 'A') big orange thing that makes my plants grow.


It tans me hide, Clyde.
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Re: What is the Sun?

Unread postby smiley » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 13:58:30

Whatever it is, it revolves around me...

..... like everything else.

:P
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Re: What is the Sun?

Unread postby Ingenuity_Gap » Mon 02 Oct 2006, 14:05:02

So far I haven't seen an explanation of what happens deep inside the sun.

The electric theory may explain the phenomena at the surface, but everybody knows that the sun exhibits strong electric and magnetic fields, without the help of any electric theory. Plasma is a good electric conductor and rotating plasma creates magnetic fields.

But what creates that plasma in the first place?

What keeps the huge ball of plasma from collapsing? Electro-magnetic fields are not enough. Only fusion gives a proper explanation of the balance between gravity and pressure.

I think the guys proposing this theory stopped studying physics at the high-school level.
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