[nwildmand]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', 'B')oth Islam and Christianity were initially spread at the point of the sword.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', 'B')oth Islam and Christianity were initially spread at the point of the sword.

[jaws]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', 'B')oth Islam and Christianity were initially spread at the point of the sword. That's no news to anyone. Muslims may get offended if the Pope only referred to Islam's violence, and not to Christianity's. Also, this is quite a bad time to say these things about Islam. I didn't listen to the speech myself, and I'm basing my comment on what you said. It would have been good if you posted the link, so we could read how he said it and what else he said with it.

[Eli]

Miki to bring up the crusades in 5 ,4 ,3, 2

And totally ignore the fact that Christians were put to all kinds of horrible deaths for the first 400 years.

Christianity was always meant to be peaceful, do unto others and turn the other cheek. Bless those who curse you and despise you. The problems only set in when people who call themselves Christians fail to act like Christians.

So lets see the Pope quotes a Byzantine Emporer who says that Islam is violent. How do muslims respond?

with violent protests, well they certainly proved him wrong.

Ask and you shall recieve

[nwildmand]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Raphael', 'A') period of about 150 years...wow what research Wildman!!!!

That was 1400 years ago and the Muslims were a bad lot you are suggesting and I am sure they were responsible for many of those aggressions...but duh that was 1400 years ago...I could list almost as many conflicts or stealth operations by the imperialists and colonialists in the last 150 years...

Or shall we count the body bags tallied in the 150 years after the crucifix landed on the shores of Mesoamerica in the year 1492.

[Miki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'N')ot exactly. First 400yrs Christianity spreads mostly despite the sword. After Constantine that starts to reverse course. Islam gets really started with Muhammed marching, with an Army, from Medina to Mecca. Not much bleading involved fortunately (if I recall rightly), but definely army, swords, and bows.

[Eli]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '
')
True. I did not express myself right. What I meant is that when Christianity started its broader expansion (what led it to be a central part of Western thought), it did so through military means. Mind you though, that bth Islam and Christianity offered people the option of peaceful convertion. This sounds like a disgrace in our times, but it's a fact of history.

[rwwff]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gideon', 'I') guess the question I'd ask Mr. Pope is, "now do you think that Jesus would have said something like that just to be a grating, provocative ass?-- Hmmm? No? Well then you're an abject failure - give me the skull cap."

[airstrip1]

The Pope was actually quoting a conversation which is alleged to have taken place between the Orthodox Christian Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleleogos and a Muslim Persian in the 14th century. Paleologos was attacking the notion of 'Holy War' on the grounds that

Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God," he says, "is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats."

Although these comments were directed at Islam they could just as well be applied to the Catholic Christian concept of a Crusade.

Byzantine Christians were not pacificists and were prepared to fight to defend their religion. However, they did not accept the concept that killing someone of a different faith could in any way speed an individuals path to paradise. It is significant that after so many centuries the Papacy seems at last to accept this concept.

The fact that after so many in the the Islamic world can still be outraged by the long dead Byzantine emperors arguments suggests that perhaps he was getting somewhere near the truth on this matter.

[Denny]

The pope is talking in philosophical terms. The quote he makes is to demonstrate an old bitterness but one taken by an observer of the period. The pope is not advocating on behalf of that person. So, all yuou Mulsim critics - read the whole quote! Don't judge a man by reading selected quotes out of context.

I don't see that criticism by Emperor Manuel II Paleleogos is any more distasteful than the modern day criticism applied to the greatest evangelist of all time, Paul of Taursus. Even Paul admitted he had his critics, even within the Christian community. But, he did not despise or fight against them, he reasoned with them. Even with Peter on many issues. And, he never advocated the use of the sword. Just plain old fashioned preaching got Christianity up and running, combined with living the faith to the end, even to martyrdom.

To my mind, ever since the power of the state got intertwined with Christianity, its been bad news for both parties.

[nazman]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('nwildmand', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gideon', 'H')e says that Islam was spread at the point of a sword?

[azreal60]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hat is still incorrect look at the early Christianization of England and Ireland and Scotland. It is still done the same way today a missionaries goes to a distant land preaches the Gospel and on occasion the natives killem

[seldom_seen]

Let's see how muslims respond to his statements and then we'll know if he was right or not?
Looks like they're just getting warmed up...

[seldom_seen]

Oh well looky there, guess the pope was right.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ABLUS, West Bank (AP) -

Two churches in the West Bank were hit by firebombs early Saturday, witnesses and clergy said, and a group claiming responsiblity said the attacks were meant as a protest against comments by Pope Benedict XVI about Islam.

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stori ... 01331.html

[Miki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'T')hat is still incorrect look at the early Christianization of England and Ireland and Scotland. It is still done the same way today a missionaries goes to a distant land preaches the Gospel and on occasion the natives killem.

[seldom_seen]

Miki, all of your posts are the same. You could save yourself a lot of typing by just creating a generic post and then using it everytime you want to say something. For instance:
-----
Dear PO forum,
US evil.
Israel evil.
Muslim victim.
Mulim violent because victim.
Sincerely,
Miki
-----
There. Feel free to cut and paste that. No worries about carpal tunnel syndrome. No need to find 100 ways to say the same thing. No need to scour conspiracy websites looking for pseudo-atrocities commited by Israel and the US.

[Miki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', 'M')iki, all of your posts are the same. You could save yourself a lot of typing by just creating a generic post and then using it everytime you want to say something. For instance:
-----
Dear PO forum,
US evil.
Israel evil.
Muslim victim.
Mulim violent because victim.
Sincerely,
Miki
-----
There. Feel free to cut and paste that. No worries about carpal tunnel syndrome. No need to find 100 ways to say the same thing. No need to scour conspiracy websites looking for pseudo-atrocities commited by Israel and the US.

[seldom_seen]

thank you for reaffirming everything I said in the preceding post, although you could have saved a lot of typing by just using what I provided.

[NEOPO]

damnit - I was trying to warm up to some of you yet the more I read the more I want to kill you without a nano second of doubt or remorse plus we do have a population problem so wtf right?
What is a FN Neocon?!!?!?
<grabs the podium with a fistful of steel>
A wolf in sheep's clothing. Murderer's, Liars and Thieves with no limit to their greed. Its a new word with an ancient meaning.
Anyone who understands yet remains silent is....... GUILTY! The catholics murdered pagans and christians alike. The christians went on to commit genocide from alaska to argentina to the tune of 200 million it is estimated. The muslims no different. Killing in the name of. The jews - like Lewis Black pointed out tonight "they were 3 hairs away from reverting to chimpanzees" so something had to be done. Moses was not stupid.

Before I was wise enough to know why I often suggested, to the horror, of my christian family that the old and the new testament were two seperate books......one for the jews and one for the christians........thank you asshole constantine
So we "needed" religion some say. Much like we "needed" the technology of the 20th century. Right...... Now....now we see a new religion called "americanism" rearing its many venomous heads.
A clusterfuck of beliefs - like a brainwash cocktail - mixed only with the finest of mind altering and numbing spirits.
Fear mixed with pride - hatred fused with love - oh this is a wicked religion indeed.

I think I hate this new religion worse then the old ones. Please by all means bring back the inquisition, the witch hunts, the culling of anyone or anything that does not conform..... Oh I see the NEOCONS already FN thought of this i.e. OMNIBUS CRIME BILL - HOMELAND SECURITY ACT et al. Maybe if there is a steady sacrifice of martyrs then the bloodlust of this beast can be contained. Perhaps we could try virgins tied to stakes at the mouth of it's lair.

I dont know about the pope - I would say he is part of the big plan though sure - a neocon if you will. There are a few true christians yet they dont call themselves christians and you wont find them in church unless its a fashion statement
I think this guy was one of them.
Imagine--John Lennon:
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
In all the books I have consumed - so many ugly and beautiful things I have read - nothing compares to this. and I will wrap it all up with a conspiracy theory Mel Gibson = conspiracy theory = mark david chapman You be the judge.and oh yeah..F*** the pope!!!

[Aaron]

Welcome to 1984... Ignorance is Strength.

I'm sure that this little Muslim/Christian thing will get sorted out in a few more pages...

I'll alert the world to expect a resolution soon.

Debating the beliefs of ancient peoples as a measure of today's reality is like trying to learn geometry by reconstructing ancient Greek texts.

All well & good, but a few things have happened since the founding documents were compiled.

Do whatever you will... I'm going to.

And pick your fantasy & enjoy... even if that means you're gonna try to use fear tactics agaisnt your enemies.

The Pope is evil... Allah is evil... it's all evil. (& good)

... & so are you.

Greedy & selfish religions filled with greedy & selfish people... I'm shocked!

In closing I'll say thanks for the cool music, & algebra & such...

Try not to kill so many folks please.

That is all.

Praise HawkMan.