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medical waste
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medical waste
by fleutz » Sun 10 Sep 2006, 05:32:57
What are doctors and those medical cats going to do when oil runs out ? They throw away about 5 tons of that plastic medical gear which ends up in our landfills. So I keep asking them "What do with that after your done" their answer is "I don't know" and keep using more and more. What is your opinion on this because I know plastic items don't decompose ever !
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fleutz - Wood
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Re: medical waste
by ChumpusRex2 » Sun 10 Sep 2006, 05:56:14
I don't really understand why plastic should suddenly stop being available - even if oil runs out completely (which it won't).
As it is, the amount of oil used for chemicals, plastics, etc. is so small that it can essentially be ignored - there be ample supply for many, many decades to come.
Plastics are easily made from any chemical feedstock - long/short chain hydrocarbons (oil and coal), methane (nat gas), methanol/ethanol (fermentation of biomass), etc.
Oil is used because it is has historically been a very cheap source - with the recent high prices, its debateable whether coal would be a cheaper source, but building the coal infrastructure would be very expensive. And no one is going to risk building coal-to-liquids and coal-to-chemicals plants if they think oil is going to come down in price (rightly, or wrongly, this is what many 'business' people think).
As it is, the amount of oil used for chemicals, plastics, etc. is so small that it can essentially be ignored - there be ample supply for many, many decades to come.
Plastics are easily made from any chemical feedstock - long/short chain hydrocarbons (oil and coal), methane (nat gas), methanol/ethanol (fermentation of biomass), etc.
Oil is used because it is has historically been a very cheap source - with the recent high prices, its debateable whether coal would be a cheaper source, but building the coal infrastructure would be very expensive. And no one is going to risk building coal-to-liquids and coal-to-chemicals plants if they think oil is going to come down in price (rightly, or wrongly, this is what many 'business' people think).
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ChumpusRex2 - Peat
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Re: medical waste
by Fergus » Sun 10 Sep 2006, 11:17:28
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ChumpusRex2', 'I') don't really understand why plastic should suddenly stop being available - even if oil runs out completely (which it won't).
I think the common thought is demand destruction. Everything from raw materials to transporting the Rm to plant, running plant, paying employees all allong the supply chain, Manufacturing, transporting finished product to matket. Everything will increase in price. As well as the finished product increasing in price in lock step with other price rises. (everyone will pass on the higher prices). So in the long run, your doctors wont be able to afford that plasstic syringe or even the cotton balls to swab the alcohol (that he cant afford) on your arm for the shot that he cant afford the vaccine for anymore. WHy, because you cant afford his services anymore.
Remember, when gas goes up. everytyhing goes up. Our infrastructure is set up for CHEAP oil. When oil is no longer cheap, nothing is cheap anymore. Its a viscous cycle that is gunna eat up a lot of businesses and individuals in the next decade.
Oil was never the problem that we face. CHEAP oil is the problem. Take a look around your house right now, tell me one item that was not made, moved or brought to your house because of cheap oil. Even that rock from Hawaii, how much was the airfare to hawaii to pick that rock up. That much at 65 a barrell. Imagine that airfare at 200 (or 300 or 500) a barrell. Would you really still have that rock at 200 a barrell price? Not unless your Bill Gates to Mark Cuban. (a billionaire).
Dont think Oil, think Cheap oil. Thats the key. A term I learned here, actually knew the definition, just not the term, Demand Destruction. Thats the poison in the stinger tha kills you.
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Fergus - Coal
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Re: medical waste
by ChumpusRex2 » Sun 10 Sep 2006, 13:13:27
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think the common thought is demand destruction. Everything from raw materials to transporting the Rm to plant, running plant, paying employees all allong the supply chain, Manufacturing, transporting finished product to matket. Everything will increase in price. As well as the finished product increasing in price in lock step with other price rises.
But, just how much will prices rise.
How much of the price of everything that you buy or do, is oil? 5%, 10%, 25%, 35%?
Oil isn't that big a factor in the US economy - it is a very big single factor, but overall, it doesn't contribute that much. In fact, when it comes down to it - oil is about 3% of spending. That means, that the price of oil must rise a long, long way to make big differences to overall prices. What's more, prices won't necessarily rise synchronously - prices will rise according to their dependance on oil. If oil rose to $150/barrel, then it's the cost of driving that would double, whereas the cost of local services may only rise a few percent. On average, I'd probably expect overall cost of living to rise by about 3%.
Inflation has been rising in recent months, but how much of that is due to oil? I don't think it's possible to attribute more than about 0.75 - 1% of the inflation rate to oil prices. The rest is most likely due to inventive credit and over-lending on property.
How much raw material goes into a disposable syringe? I can't image it's much. Hospitals pay about $2.00 for a box of 100 syringes
, and about $0.50 for a box of 100 needles. They are ordered in bulk, so transport costs are minimal. I would expect a typical hospital to order syringes 50,000 at a time.
The bulk of the costs in medical care are staff costs, insurance costs, etc. and not really raw material costs. Yes, drugs and medical equipment are expensive - but it's not really because the raw materials are expensive, but because the amount of effort that goes into making sure that they are of high quality, and safe is large - not to mention a very large proprotion goes into the lawyer fund, in case of claim.
If you look at the cost of medications, the cost of the raw materials are, generally, not high - popular medications like Tylenol & codeine wholesale at around $0.50 for a pack of 100. The reason new medications are expensive is development costs - which can approach $500 million for a new drug - and insurance costs (which can be more than 50% of the cost for 'high risk' drugs).
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ChumpusRex2 - Peat
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Re: medical waste
by MrMambo » Mon 11 Sep 2006, 05:27:53
I tend to agree with a lot of what champusRex2 has said to this post.
Although oil is involved in almost any part of the modern way of life doesn't mean it is irreplacable. And it is a good idea to try to get the whole picture i.e trying to meassure how big a part oil costs are to total costs. And especially how you can plan to replace oil with other sources of energy and chemical raw material in the long run.
Its all technologically possible with todays technology, and with the right planning one might make it economically possible within a couple of decades. We might not have to go through the worst doom scenarios in the medium run if we try to face the problems in rational ways.
I believe healtcare expenses will continue to grow not first and foremost because of rising oil prices, but because of effects of lifestyle problems combined with an ever increasing arsenal of cutting edge R&D intensive treaments wich are by their nature expensive. To cut costs you have to choose either not to use available cutting edge treatments, or the general population has to become more healthy none of wich are easy.
Although oil is involved in almost any part of the modern way of life doesn't mean it is irreplacable. And it is a good idea to try to get the whole picture i.e trying to meassure how big a part oil costs are to total costs. And especially how you can plan to replace oil with other sources of energy and chemical raw material in the long run.
Its all technologically possible with todays technology, and with the right planning one might make it economically possible within a couple of decades. We might not have to go through the worst doom scenarios in the medium run if we try to face the problems in rational ways.
I believe healtcare expenses will continue to grow not first and foremost because of rising oil prices, but because of effects of lifestyle problems combined with an ever increasing arsenal of cutting edge R&D intensive treaments wich are by their nature expensive. To cut costs you have to choose either not to use available cutting edge treatments, or the general population has to become more healthy none of wich are easy.
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Re: medical waste
by smallpoxgirl » Wed 13 Sep 2006, 21:55:49
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ChumpusRex2', 'T')he bulk of the costs in medical care are staff costs, insurance costs, etc. and not really raw material costs.
That's true, but for very specific and articial reasons. The cost of materials are low mostly because the cost of those materials is undervalued. The medical industry throws out HUGE amounts of paper products. The federal government pays companies to come and log their lands. The paper companies pay nothing to compensate for all the dioxin that their bleaching processes release into our river. Thus paper products are undervalued. The medical industry throws out IMMENSE amounts of plastic. It is difficult to comprehend the amount of needless plastic waste that comes out of a hospital. Again...the US government fights wars, at tax payer expense, to provide cheap oil that gets used to make plastic. So plastic is undervalued. Also in the US, the disposal costs aren't factored into the purchase cost, so plastic goods again are artificially cheap. Labor is expensive because the medical industry hasn't as of yet figured out a way to out source it. They are paying the real costs of labor and so it appears relatively much more expensive.
I wholeheartedly agree with fleutz. The amount of waste, much of it toxic and/or carcinogenic, that is produced by the medical industry is staggering. It is enough that I have seriously contemplated moving into another proffesion. I am not entirely sure that we doctors, with all our waste, don't cause more disease than we cure. The plastic, much of which gets incenerated producing god awful emissions, is truely just the begining. Virtually every medication that someone takes ends up getting excreted in either their urine or feces. That then goes to a sewer treatment plant and then back into the river and on to the drinking water of the next town down stream. We are starting to see significant levels of a variety of different medications showing up in the drinking water.
As for the pharmaceutical industry...their biggest line item expense is neither raw materials nor labor. It is advertising. I haven't seen the numbers in a couple of years, but the one's I remember were from Phizer in, I believe, 1999. They spent 15% of their income on producing and distributing drugs, 17% on R&D, and 43% on advertising.
"We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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