[gego]

The true terrorist enemy is the Wahhibist sect of the Islamic religion. Think of the most repressive religion in the USA , on steroids, supported by the funding power of the Saudi Royal family, intimidating any other religion or religious sect within Islam with drive by shootings, and brainwashing the Arab world youth.

We should be afraid of them, and afraid of the response by the US government against the rest of the world, and against its own citizens.

[Miki]

9/11 marks the anniversary of an event in which 3000 innocent American civilians were killed. What most Americans don't realize is that 9/11 also marks the anniversary of the beginning of the illegal wars, in which many more thousands of innocent Arab civilians were killed. It marks the beginning of the US' unaccountability for its war crimes. In the name of American's "self-defense", the US has reserved the right to kill as many Arab civilians as necessary. And in exchange of what? How did the thousands killed in Irak and Lebanon and Palestine have decreased terrorism? What the US and Israel did is terrorism. And this is not my invention or my biased view due to the fact that my country was bombed. This is the opinion of anyone who has taken the time to watch any non-American news and who has a minimal capacity to think and question what the America media sells.

We will hear about the American civilians that died in 9/11. We will remember their deaths every year. The whole world will remember. We will hear about their stories, their hopes, their families, their children. But we won't hear anything about the Arab civilians. Perhaps the numbers of people dead, but nothing more. They were killed like rats, and like rats they will be forgotten.

I suppose Americans consider that an American civilian is worth more than an Arab civilian. Or maybe the media does not let them see how much their government is inflicting suffering on the Arab people, or how all these military actions against Arabs are unjustified, constitute state-sponsored terrorism, and do nothing to decrease terrorism--on the contrary.

When 1000 people were killed in Lebanon--40% of them children-- and our country was being destroyed, Americans were going about their lives, as if nothing happened. Many were cheering Israel to commit more crimes. In all honesty, do you think Arab citizens have any empathy left towards the American people? If you were in their situation, would you have empathy for the American people? Would you perhaps be justified in harboring some resentment?

[Ayoob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '9')/11 marks the anniversary of an event in which 3000 innocent American civilians were killed. What most Americans don't realize is that 9/11 also marks the anniversary of the beginning of the illegal wars, in which many more thousands of innocent Arab civilians -snip

Blah blah blah

snip- do you think Arab citizens have any empathy left towards the American people? If you were in their situation, would you have empathy for the American people? Would you perhaps be justified in harboring some resentment?

[Miki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayoob', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('miki', 's')nip- do you think Arab citizens have any empathy left towards the American people? If you were in their situation, would you have empathy for the American people? Would you perhaps be justified in harboring some resentment?

[dukey]

get them to watch this too
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... +for+truth

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', 'T')he true terrorist enemy is the Wahhibist sect of the Islamic religion.

[Miki]

9-11; the "unifying myth" for the war on terror

By Mike Whitney

09/11/06 "Information Clearing House" $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')o a large extent, the war on terror is a shabby promotional scheme designed to mobilize the nation for a permanent state of war while curtailing civil liberties. There’s nothing original in this analysis, but it does explain the importance of media as a vehicle for Bush’s public relations campaign. It also explains why high-ranking officials in the administration are still provided unlimited air-time to reiterate the same bland bromides over and over again without being challenged.

[strider3700]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', 'W')hat most Americans don't realize is that 9/11 also marks the anniversary of the beginning of the illegal wars, in which many more thousands of innocent Arab civilians were killed.

[gego]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '
')The true enemy is those nations or people who wish to impose their views and values on other nations or people.

[gego]

One outcome of this conflict is repression in the USA.

I heard somewhere that 50% of the US public thinks it would be appropriate for people of Arab descent in the US be forced to carry a government issued national identity card.

The first think that came to my mind was the star that the Jews under Hitler's rule were forced to wear.

That is where we are in the ascendency of fascism in the USA. First you identify the undesirables, then you segregate them (since they don't then have anything to do you put them to work) and finally when you use them up, you liquidate them. And of course you throw in any political discenters for good measure.

Might or might not happen, but clearly the public can be manipulated into supporting just about any action of government as was done for the invations of Iraq.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', 'I') don't think you can treat people who will take every opportunity to kill you in the same understanding, forgiving manner more appropriate for your young children, and you certainly can't ignore them.

[seahorse]

Miki,

Unfortunately, the Arabs that you continually lump together as one broad sweeping homogenous group are not all as peace loving as you imply and are not as homogenous as you imply, they do not all share your peace loving ideals, nor do they support freedom and democracy as do you. Saudi Arabia doesn't allow women to vote, doesn't allow anyone to vote really, and that is true in Syria as well. The Taliban certainly didn't allow it. The women certainly don't have rights in those countries, and certainly aren't posting on the internet as you do. You are Lebanese, not from Saudi Arabia, not from Syria, not from Egypt, not from Jordan, not from Iran, and certainly not from Afghanistan or Pakistan. Despite all the faults of the US, we certainly support the rights of women like you to vote, to speak out, to post on the internet, to marry who you want, you have rights, we recognize that, those countries I listed do not.

So, before you continue your diatribe about the immorality of the US, remember the immorality of those you defend.

Further, keep in mind that the "Arabs" attacked first on 9-11(you continually lump them all together as one big happy group, so so will I), and the Taliban, the Saudi Arabians, the Syrians, no one over there did anything about it. If you will remember, we gave the Taliban an opportunity to hand over Bin Laden, they refused. Further, the "Arabs" continue to fund and arm all the various militant factions fighting the US and attacking other targets in the west, so they are actively fighting the US/West/ even Russia. Thus, they are our enemy.

The Arabs stand for nothing. They recognize none of the human rights that you profess to believe in, and they support the Arab "terrorist" attacks against civilians -which you believe is wrong. The Arabs stand for nothing morally, and I'm disappointed that you defend them and these actions. I'm disappointed that all the peace loving Arabs don't do anything about them. I distinctly remember Palestinians cheering on the streets immediately after 9-11. The Arabs should have been careful for what they prayed for, because now they got it - war. They attack civilians, we attack civilians. Don't complain.

You should spend an equal amount of time writing your own legislature to take a more active stand against Hamas and other militant groups, write the Syrian government, the Egyptian government, Egyptian etc., see how far that will get you.

Of all the posters, your morally contradictory positions defending immoral Arab governments and their terrorist attacks on civilians has convinced me that the Arabs cannot be reasoned with, and that Bush is right, this is a fight to the finish. If it is truly going to be a fight to the finish, as Napoleon said, if you have cannons, use them, if you have lightning bolts, use them.

[seldom_seen]

thank you seahorse.

[Miki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gego', 'I')f the USA were to retaliate, we should have taken out some of the Royal family, and a few dozen of the religious buidings of the Wahhibist.

[seahorse]

Miki,

I hastily read your rant, really quite hastily, because it is a rant and nothing more. Have I been to an Arab country? You're fishing thinking I haven't. You're fishing thinking I'm some ignorant American that has never been out of his country and simply whines and complains all day in front of a computer (like you?). Hmm, you won't catch anything here with that fishing question. Your question implies I haven't left my computer, but you might get an answer you don't expect, like this - yes I have been to an Arab country. I saw women that were treated like property, I saw a man punch a little shepherd boy in the face for absolutely no reason.

Its a fact the Palestinians were on the streets cheering the 9-11 attacks. They literally cheered the deaths of innocent people. No matter what the history, no politics, no religion, is moral that cheers the deaths of innocent people. You know the history, you say you have religious beliefs, did you join the Palestinians and cheer the attacks? If you did, you're twisted, if you didn't, then they shouldn't either.

Let's look at the facts about Arab governments. They have extremely repressive governments, SA just passed a law that forbids pets bc its not a good muslim practice, and you couldn't post on the internet from SA, for example.

Now, you blame all this repressiveness on the US. Typical Arab response. Take no responsibility for your own governance. However, there is one flaw in the US is to blame for the repressive governments, and that is, there are a lot of repressive Arab governments not supported by the US - Syria for example. There are also repressive non-Arab governments that don't go around supporting terrorism - So, why is it only the Arabs seem to justify terrorism and not all the other many people in the world subject to repressive governments?

But, let's look at this another way, does America military support for Saudi Arabia justify militant terrorism? Did America tell SA to pass a law outlawing pets because its not very muslim? Does America tell SA, Egypt and Jordan that their women can't vote or they'll lose American aid? Does the US condition aid to those repressive governments on they're not allowing women to post on the internet, choose their marriage partner? Hmm, the blame is all on the US, or is it a repressive religion to blame? The problem is, its a repressive religion, and the Arabs can't separate church and state.

In the end, you are a whiner. You whine and complain about your own Arab governments and America, but don't do anything about either. I'm willing to bet you write here and complain, but still don't do anything to protest your own repressive governments. No one likes complainers/whiners. Its too easy to whine. After awhile, people quit listening.

I would say quit whining and pick a side, but its obvious you already have. You support Arab terrorism - you say its justified. That means, you fight against US/West/Russia. Fortunately for you, Americans are fighting a limited war against the Arabs. People forget (not Smallpox girl), but most forget that Americans have fought and won two wars against insurgents, the Civil War and the Indian wars, and to an extent, WWII. Those wars show that insurgencies can be defeated, if one is willing to wage total war. Like Napoleon said, if you have lightning bolts, use them.

I used to think I was fairly open minded and liberal on these issues, in fact, once I defended you against Jack. Not anymore. Now that I realize you justify the terrorist actions, you have convinced me where Jack couldn't, that Jack is right.

[Miki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', 'I') hastily read your rant, really quite hastily because it is a rant and nothing more.

[seahorse2]

Miki,

You generalize too much, so I generalize. You constantly refer to Arabs (without differentiation between Arabs) and American terrorism against Arabs (without differentiation between Arabs). So, in that line of thinking, Syrians, Lebanese, Egyptians, etc will all be associated with Bin Laden.

If the past is justification for understanding the violence of Arabs against the West, as you argue, then how far back are we willing to go? Abraham? Adam and Eve? Therein lies the problem. Everyone has a selective view of the past, and therefore, accepts no moral responsibility for the present. So, if the past is justification for acts committed now, we either use all of the past or none of it. Since we are going to use all past history, then all present violent reactions by any group committed against any other group, including Israeli terrorism, is justified.

The past is full of Middle East violence. I think all sides will be able to find something in the past to continue that endless violence well into the future.

[nwildmand]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse', 'y')es I have been to an Arab country. I saw women that were treated like property, I saw a man punch a little shepherd boy in the face for absolutely no reason.

[Miki]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse2', 'M')iki,You generalize too much, so I generalize. You constantly refer to Arabs (without differentiation between Arabs) and American terrorism against Arabs (without differentiation between Arabs). So, in that line of thinking, Syrians, Lebanese, Egyptians, etc will all be associated with Bin Laden.

[seahorse2]

Miki,

It is you who refer to "Arabs" without differentiation. So, if you consider everyone in the ME an Arab without differentiation, then I will do the same and give all Arabs the blame for Bin Laden.

You can quote all the statistics you want about US support of dictators (you fail to mention all the Arab countries that provide support for Arab extremist), but it doesn't take away from the fact that the immorality of not letting women vote, women as property, etc, comes from the fact that Islam is a very repressive religion, there is no separation of church and state, and, in the end, Arabs do nothing about it. If they want to change it, they could. Ultimately, if it is their American puppet governments that are the problem, bomb them, fly planes into their buildings, blow up their trains, oil infastructure. They accept no responsibility for their own governance, its too easy to blame others.

The fact that Arabs do not try to change their own governments, and instead, only rally to the cry of stopping the "zionist" is proof that the Arabs really don't want to change their repressive religiously dominated governments, they like them. In the end, their lack of action to instill democracies is proof that the Arabs are only interested in a religious war against the Israeli and American infidels, and are not interested in human rights that you profess to believe in.

As for Iraqi deaths, keep in mind that most of the deaths occuring in Iraq are caused by Iraqis killing Iraqis. The injustice of murder can never be blamed on government or the lack thereof. Murder is murder, it is always unjustified. Murder is not the moral blame of the Americans removing Sadam. If murder of kids and innocent people can be justified based on government or lack thereof to control individual actions, then it takes away the personal moral responsibility that we all have as humans to do what's right. It means that the only just government is a dictatorship where no individual is allowed freedom of any kind, bc it takes a government to control all actions. It means that there is no morality other than a political morality. We all know that's not true. Iraqis are murdering Iraqis, and they have only themselves to blame for that.

But, we are using history to justify present actions, therefore, everything is justified, war against civilians is justified, has been in history, and if history is precedent for the present, is justified today. May the best man win - or, as they say in Islam, "God willing" the best shall prevail.