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Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby Denny » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 00:12:08

I saw the headline on the Toronto Glove and Mail yesterday. It stated: "Bush admits CIA operating secret foreing prisons?

Man, what a horrible image beng portrayed of our best friend country. A place I called home for four years of my life. I never thought of the States in this light.

Is this matter of the clandestine prisons something new, that has just happened under Bush's time, or has it been ongoing from previous administrations too?

I hope most Americans are angry and ahamed enough to write to the president and your representatives. Because your country's image is being trarnished badly by him and his cohorts. It really is.

Thsi sounds like something out of Russia back during the cold war.
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby Jack » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 00:52:34

Secret prisons aren't necessarily bad. Some people need to be dealt with proactively.

Think of it as legitimate self-defense in the face of terrorism's acts of war. That's better, isn't it? 8)
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby seldom_seen » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 01:22:27

Image
You can't handle the truth!

Most people don't want to be bothered with those dirty, yucky issues of national security and natural resources extraction. They want to just drive to the gas station and think happy thoughts as they fuel up their car.

They don't want to think about wars in the middle east, secret prisons, or the Canadian wilderness being ripped up and turned in to a slag heap to get at some low grade tar sands. The feelings mutual, it's a shame what you're doing to Alberta.
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby Dreamtwister » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 01:55:04

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'I')s this matter of the clandestine prisons something new, that has just happened under Bush's time, or has it been ongoing from previous administrations too?


It would be naive to assume that they have only occured within the last 5 years, but I think it's fair to say the number of facilities has...multiplied dramatically.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'I') hope most Americans are angry and ahamed enough to write to the president and your representatives.


Don't count on it.
The whole of human history is a refutation by experiment of the concept of "moral world order". - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 02:18:32

Don't forget the special extra options: they send a few of the prisoners to our friends in Egypt or Jordan for some additional questioning. It's a tough world, and probably going to get tougher. And why, in act, haven't the jihadis struck in the US since 2001? Have they given up? Are they just biding their time?
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby rogerhb » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 02:57:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'A')nd why, in act, haven't the jihadis struck in the US since 2001? Have they given up? Are they just biding their time?


They don't need to, just release a video, or even during normal scheduled run-of-the-mill political events then just like magic the terror threat goes up.

Now who is it who is caught expending blood and treasure in the ME?
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 03:20:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '
')Now who is it who is caught expending blood and treasure in the ME?
From what I can tell, the Iraqis are in a chaotic situation, and they are killing each other, while American Corporations have muscled back into the business end. Business as usual, evidently. I heard a guy who writes about mercenaries say that on the radio last night. Sounded like a very straight-shooting kind of guy. No BS.
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby rogerhb » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 05:17:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'N')o BS.


I'm quite sure horrendous private profits are being made from the mess. Who is paying for it?

American Taxpayers
American Soldiers
Every Iraqi

You are quite happily fleecing your own country to keep the war going, while asset stripping Iraq.

And cutting taxes in the during the most expensive [s]war[/s] military adventure you have ever prosecuted....

Somebody is doing very well and it isn't 99% of the Americans or Iraqis.
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby Miki » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 05:50:13

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', 'M')ost people don't want to be bothered with those dirty, yucky issues of national security and natural resources extraction. They want to just drive to the gas station and think happy thoughts as they fuel up their car.


You can't handle the truth either. Otherwise, why is it so hard for you to call it by its name? The US has been engaging in illegal wars and state sponsored terrorism. You use national security as an excuse to violate every piece of international law and every human right of Arab citizens. And you're hypocrite enough to claim that you're the victim, that you're righteous, and that you're spreading democracy and the defense of human rights.

Sorry to bring you back on the ground, but your government is one of the most corrupt, bloodthirsty, criminal governments in the world.

Question: if Bush et al lied about Irak (something that has been more than proven) and cited "intelligence evidence" to corroborate their lies, who's to say they're not lieing about Iran? Whose to say their accusations of Hisballah's terrorist acts against the US (something that they have yet to offer convincing evidence for) are not false? How can we trust anything the US government says, when they use "intelligence sources" to lie?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he feelings mutual, it's a shame what you're doing to Alberta.


Feel what you want, but that won't change the basic fact that your state is a terrorist organization. Your delusional arrogance is such that you think you're entitled to criticize other countries for abusing nature, while your government slaughters Arab children.

You guys have plenty to learn from the Canadian people. At least they respect human rights, democracy, civil liberties, and international law. At least they don't use terrorism as a mean to achieve political aims. At least they don't behave like dumb arrogant bullies, the way your state does.
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby Miki » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 06:13:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '
')Now who is it who is caught expending blood and treasure in the ME?
From what I can tell, the Iraqis are in a chaotic situation, and they are killing each other, while American Corporations have muscled back into the business end. Business as usual, evidently. I heard a guy who writes about mercenaries say that on the radio last night. Sounded like a very straight-shooting kind of guy. No BS.


PMS: you told me the other day that it wouldn't be "right" for the US to leave now because of the chaos going on. But you do think it's right for the US to create and perpetuate the mess. And you think it's right for the US to steal Iraki resources, taking advantage of the mess they created.

In view of your own admission of these facts, I don't understand why you insist on saying that the US invaded Irak to give democracy to the Irakis. The US wants to have hegemony over the oil and needs a regime change in Irak to be able to subdue Irakis in line with American interests. It is quite simple and obvious. You admit so much about this, but you refuse to call it what it is. Why?

I understand your pride in being an American. You do have a lot to be proud of. I do understand patriotism; it is a wonderful value. What I don't understand is your refusal to acknowledge the fact that your government is not working towards the ideals that have made many Americans like you be proud of your country. Your government is working against every value that American society supposedly advocates. Is it easier to deny everything and go on with life even if the cost is to let the US become the Saddam (criminal dictator) of the world? At least Saddam was restricted to Irak in his actions. At least there was a way to take him out of power and control his actions. But who is controlling the US? How can the US be controlled when they opt to step over international law and human rights whenever they get in the way of their political aims?
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby katkinkate » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 08:21:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '.').... But who is controlling the US? How can the US be controlled when they opt to step over international law and human rights whenever they get in the way of their political aims?


That's what scares me.

In my opinion all politicians lie and the higher up the heirarchy they are the more they've had to lie to get there. But at least in most systems there are checks and balances to moderate their effects and keep them (reasonablly) honest. The present Govt. of USA seems to be systematically dismantling and co-opting all their checking mechanisms while distracting the public with their tamed media's help.

I don't like where this seems to be heading. And I really don't like the way our Prime Minister (Howard) is cosying up to Bush and trying to turn Australia into a mini-USA.
Kind regards, Katkinkate

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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 12:45:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '
')PMS: you told me the other day that it wouldn't be "right" for the US to leave now because of the chaos going on. But you do think it's right for the US to create and perpetuate the mess. And you think it's right for the US to steal Iraki resources, taking advantage of the mess they created.
I don't think they intended to create a mess (but we bystanders never really know do we?) I've read the pundit Spengler over in asiatimes suggest that chaos works to America's advantage. An article something like, "How I learned to stop worrying and love Chaos". A large part of the western forces there are mercenaries. We have to dig deep to understand even a little bit.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n view of your own admission of these facts, I don't understand why you insist on saying that the US invaded Irak to give democracy to the Irakis. The US wants to have hegemony over the oil and needs a regime change in Irak to be able to subdue Irakis in line with American interests. It is quite simple and obvious. You admit so much about this, but you refuse to call it what it is. Why?
I don't think I've refused to call it like it is. I follow peak oil. The US is there as a national interest matter and Middle East oil is a national interest matter. see: Carter Doctrine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Doctrine
I've also said that to me the invasion of Iraq doesn't make sense if viewed from the combatting Islamic Terrorism point of view.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')our government is working against every value that American society supposedly advocates.
On the contrary, our government is watching out for the international oil markets and American access to it, which is something that Americans value like they value life. One thing I feel is certain, the "No Blood For Oil" crowd will be peeling the stickers off of their cars in a few years and replacing them with "Nuke em! Get the Oil!"
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby seldom_seen » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 14:19:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', 'Y')ou can't handle the truth either. Otherwise, why is it so hard for you to call it by its name? The US has been engaging in illegal wars and state sponsored terrorism.

I find this whole concept of "illegal" wars quite laughable. Can you explain to me what wars in history were actually legal wars? ...and by whose standards?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd you're hypocrite enough to claim that you're the victim, that you're righteous, and that you're spreading democracy and the defense of human rights.

hehe...where did I claim to be righteous or a victim, or spreading democracy and human rights?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')orry to bring you back on the ground, but your government is one of the most corrupt, bloodthirsty, criminal governments in the world.

When I look around the world, it seems to me that most governments are corrupt. Can you name me one government that isn't corrupt?

I think the problem that you have with the US is that they have an inordinate amount of power to go with their corruption. Hesbollah is corrupt and bloodthirsty and criminal, yet they have very little power and influence compared to the US. I think that's why you're so angry. Ultimately your side is very weak in the face of more powerful corrupt governments like the US and Israel.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou guys have plenty to learn from the Canadian people. At least they respect human rights, democracy, civil liberties, and international law. At least they don't use terrorism as a mean to achieve political aims. At least they don't behave like dumb arrogant bullies, the way your state does.

As much as I love Canada and the Canadians, having lived near the us/canada border for much of my life. Their country (like the US) is one big whorehouse where everything is for sale. Except the US has better environmental laws.
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby dukey » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 15:42:44

america has a concentration camp where people have been locked up for YEARS without trial, and tortured.

And what you are surprised by this ?
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby Miki » Mon 11 Sep 2006, 07:03:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seldom_seen', 'I') find this whole concept of "illegal" wars quite laughable. Can you explain to me what wars in history were actually legal wars? ...and by whose standards?


By the standards of the treaties of international law that your government is a co-signatory to. The UN declared the war in Irak was illegal. Most of the world governments opposed it. Two thirds of the world population opposed it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'h')ehe...where did I claim to be righteous or a victim, or spreading democracy and human rights?


I was not referring to you in particular, but to the American people.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen I look around the world, it seems to me that most governments are corrupt. Can you name me one government that isn't corrupt?


Corrupt yes, but corrupt and criminal and unaccountable for its crimes: no.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think the problem that you have with the US is that they have an inordinate amount of power to go with their corruption. Hesbollah is corrupt and bloodthirsty and criminal, yet they have very little power and influence compared to the US. I think that's why you're so angry. Ultimately your side is very weak in the face of more powerful corrupt governments like the US and Israel.


No, I'm angry because immoral people like you are in power in the world, and they distort the truth and curtail our freedom, so that the decent among us are impotent to act. But empires fall sooner or later, so make sure you enjoy your chickenhawkish power while it lasts.
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Re: Secret CIA prisons

Unread postby peaker_2005 » Mon 11 Sep 2006, 10:35:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '
')
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen I look around the world, it seems to me that most governments are corrupt. Can you name me one government that isn't corrupt?


Corrupt yes, but corrupt and criminal and unaccountable for its crimes: no.


Hmm, I'd say that those words you've chosen, Miki, would describe the government of many African nations quite well. Some of the island nations in the Pacific match that description as well.
"Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." - Douglas Adams
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