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Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby Jack » Thu 31 Aug 2006, 20:14:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', '
')The world total is above $500 million I believe, so 1/3 isn't too shabby. Most of the nations aren't too wealthy so it's kind of hard to give money away when you need it for yourself (or your rigs).


You make some good, interesting points. Thank you.

But as to the 140MM - I seem to recall that King Fahd had a 200MM limit on his American Express card. I also note that Iran has 60,000,000 people. So, the good King could charge that 140MM to his card, get the points, and still have plenty of space for the odd trip. Or, the Iranians could each donate the vast sum of $9 per person.

I'm sorry, but these numbers suggest to me that there isn't a lot of concern for the Lebanese.
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Thu 31 Aug 2006, 20:50:35

As I pointed out yesterday, in 2002, Iranian laborers marched in Tehran with signs saying "Forget about Palestine, What about us?" I suppose the ring leaders were arrested and tortured.
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby mekrob » Thu 31 Aug 2006, 20:50:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')'m sorry, but these numbers suggest to me that there isn't a lot of concern for the Lebanese.


Sorry, that article was a bit old, when the war was still going on.

This is from today's:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')orld donors who had gathered for the conference in Stockholm pledged $940 million in early reconstruction aid _ nearly twice the $500 million target set by organizers.

snip

Major donations at Thursday's conference included $300 million from Qatar


Source

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')n additional US $500 million have been provided by the Saudis to Lebanon. On Wednesday, Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora described the funds as a “grant… [which would be] a nucleus for an Arab fund to reconstruct Lebanon.” It is estimated that the damage caused by the current conflict to Lebanon’s infrastructure is worth more than US $2 billion.

According to Siniora, the Saudis have also given Lebanon US $50 million in emergency humanitarian aid for victims of Israeli attacks and the displaced people, estimated to number some 800,000 by the UN in Lebanon.

A further donation of US $32 million was raised through a Saudi television appeal on Thursday. A similar telethon conducted on Friday in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) raised Dh49 million (US $13.5 million)

snip

UAE President Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed al-Nahayan has ordered a US $20 million donation to provide medical and other aid supplies to the Lebanese people. A similar sum – US $20 million – has been promised by Kuwait’s Emir Sheikh Sabah al Ahmed al Sabah to help secure the transportation of emergency aid to the Lebanese.

snip

In addition to official donations by Arab governments and NGOs, individuals throughout the Arab world have been contributing generously to assist the Lebanese people, according to local media reports. The Qatari authorities, for example, have collected about US $ 3.9 million in donations towards that goal. Some US $250,000 have been wired to the Lebanese Red Cross by the Kuwait Red Crescent Society from private donations, according to its head, Berjas al-Berjas.


Source

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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby Miki » Fri 01 Sep 2006, 14:54:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Eli', 'W')ell the right of return as it is called would be political suicide for Israel, it is as simple as that.


Pretty simple yes, and pretty illegal too. I'd like to see any other nation in the world put up with that. Would you put up with someone precluding you from returning to your land?

And in any case, isn't that how Israel created its state in the first place, by gathering all the Jews of Europe and sending them to Palestine? With the little difference that the Palestinians wouldn't be invading any land, because the West Bank is Palestininan land, as per all UN resolutions.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')rafat at Camp David called for the right of return of Palestinians and their descendants back to their original homes in what is now Israel. The key word there is descendants, that includes not just all the Palestinians displaced but their children and there children's children.


So you propose separating families as a condition for people to return to their land?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')rticle 194 was passed way back in 1948 good info on what it says.


1-The American Constitution was approved "way before" 1948. That doesn't make it any less valid.

2-$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Israel was accepted into the United Nations on condition that it accept the Right of Return of the Palestinian refugees. Admission of Israel to membership in the United Nations (General Assembly Resolution 273 of May 11, 1949 ) requires Israel to comply with General Assembly Resolution 194 of December 11, 1948 and Israel stated it agreed to comply with this resolution.


UN Resolution 273

3-Article 11 of UN Resolution 194 is not subject to interpretation. Only Israel seems to have problems understanding its meaning. Here it is:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '1')1. Resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible;

Instructs the Conciliation Commission to facilitate the repatriation, resettlement and economic and social rehabilitation of the refugees and the payment of compensation, and to maintain close relations with the Director of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees and, through him, with the appropriate organs and agencies of the United Nations;
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby Miki » Fri 01 Sep 2006, 16:48:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', ' ')why do they continue to steal land (75% of the West bank since the 70s)? Where in the American media do they talk about this stealing? Where do they talk about the illegal settlers that the state of Israel keeps sending to Palestinian towns?
I mentioned the grove owner that I read about who lost some of his grove to eminent domain for purposes of building the fence. I don't know any more than that, how about if you give some specifics and maybe some links on this.


Here is an account of land illegally confiscated (B'TSalem is an Israeli Human Rights Organization that denounces violations of human rights from both sides during the conflct). B'Salem
Here's a more specific account per year:
Mona Baker
Here's a detailed account of the population of illegal settlements in the West Bank: Illegal Settlers
Also, here they explain the economic incentives offered to Israelis to encourage them to migrate to the West Bank (internationally recognized as Palestinian territory):
B'TSalem

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('miki', 'W')e'll never know, cause Israel has never "given" any land for good. Whatever they "give" (and whatever they don't "give"), they invade or steal soon after.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PMS', 'T')hey gave The Sinai back to Egypt and they haven't invaded there. Maybe the Palestinians need a Sadat.

I was referring to land returned to the Palestinins.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('miki', 'T')hat is also why Israel wants to collect all the Jews in the world and move them to Israel. In fact, that is how the Jews stole Palestine to start with: they just ethnic cleansed the area by slaughtering tons of Palestinians and terrorizing the rest so they wuld leave Palestine.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PMS', 'I')'ll just have to read the history for myself, miki.
You should, and in doing that make sure you review a neutral source of historical facts.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PMS', ']')BTW, what do you make of the Hebron Massacre of 1929? I linked it the other day but I didn't see you post anything about it, unless that's what your "is this Ottoman Empire" remark was about.
You referred to an event prior to 1948. The link you gave mentioned both the Ottoman conquests and the 1929 event, so I wasn't sure which you were referring to. That's why I asked.
If I'm not wrong, your point was that the Arabs/Palestinians have also killed Jews, right? Well, no one in his/her right mind would deny that the killing and the crimes are perpetrated by both sides.
Perhaps I missed your point?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut you just said they want to return to Palestine, not Israel. Is this what the UN and the international community support?
Maybe there's a confusion of terms here. When I talk about "Palestine", I mean the West Bank and the other territories that are internationally recognized as Palestnian Territories that have been occupied by Israel.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o Palestinians "defend" themselves by blowing up random diners in street-side cafes? That doesn't play too well in Peoria, miki. Besides the satisfaction of bumping off a few Israelis, what does it get them? nothing, that's what I mean about the futility of it all. The Israelis aren't going anywhere.
It is a vicious cycle of violence, but it goes both ways. It goes something like this: the IDF violates Palestinian rights (slaughter/stealing land/demolishing houses/torture/kidnapping,etc), then the Palestinians defend themselves with their primitive weapons (eg, Hamas) which atack both the IDF and the Israeli civilians. This only provokes more atacks from the IDF, and so the cycle continues indefinitely...It is an endless war in which both parties employ terrorist means to achieve their aims, with the very important distinction that the Palestinians don't have many other ways to defend themselves given their poor "army".

As per suicide bombing, it is very hard to understand to anyone outside the Palestinian situation. It took me a while to grasp it myself. Mind you that I don't condone it---but I understand the "logic" behind it. You see, the Palestinian guerrillas are like ants fighting the IDF. They are completely impotent. But the IDF continues to violate their rights and kill many civilians. Many believe that suicide bombing Israeli civilians is the only way to put pressure on the Israeli government to stop killing Palestinian civilians. I also imagine many Palestinians are traumatized and depressed enough to feel that killing themselves is not so difficult.
And the hate and the impotence that they feel would fill anyone with enough adrenaline to dare to do anything, including killing one's self to achieve some revenge/justice/put pressure on Israel.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think he was saying that the terror didn't originate with Hitler or Mussolini. There is no question that what the Palestinians are doing is terrorism in that it is attacks against civilian population that they are conducting.
What Ben Gurion said is that the Palestinians were resisting the Israeli occupation, and thus this was a war between two parties, and not the perpetration of terrorism from Palestinians against Israel.

He also said that in this war terror was used as a method by the Palestinians. This is undeniable, but it is also undeniable that Israel uses terror against Palestinians too. Thus, the American misconception that Israel is the victim of terrorism is completely misguided. This is a on-going war in which both parties are using terror as a war strategy.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen Israelis bulldoze Palestinian homes, are they homes randomly selected or the homes of "resistance fighters", i.e. terrorists?
So if a criminal shoots a person in your neighborhood tomorrow, the police has the right to demolish his house? What's the fault of his wife, his children, and his elder parents?

Moreover, the houses are often demolished *before* there has been any trial to confirm that the owner of the house had engaged in terrorist acts. Here: B'TSalem

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s for your first point, note that Ben Gurion stated that Jews merely wanted to settle there;

Well, the Jews had a very amicable way of settling, using terrorism to kick Palestinians out of their lands. In fact, their friendly settlements continue *today* as Israel constantly sends illegal settlers to the internationally recognized Palestinian Territories.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'w')hatever the truth is on this issue, it was the Holocaust that got this started, historically. And the Palestinans were allied with and sympathetic to Hitler and the Nazis. They picked the wrong side. They screwed up and are now one of the biggest bunch of losers on the planet.

Oh please, what kind of reasoning is that? If we're going to decide where to throw all the Jews on the basis of the guilty parties of the Holocaust, then we should send them all to Germany, not Palestine.

Moreover, the Zionists found no reason not to collaborate with the Nazis in the mid-thirties to rid Europe of its Jews. The details of this transfer agreement were given by Edwin Black's book, The Transfer Agreement: the Untold Story of the Secret Pact Between the Third Reich & Jewish Palestine (New York: Macmillan Publishing Co., London: Collier Macmillan Publishers, 1984).

Also, for the record, the main reason why the Palestinians are "the biggest losers in the planet" is that the international community has not held Israel accountable for over 60 UN resolutions that defended the rights of the Palestinian people. The US government, in particular, has vetoed several of those resolutions that obliged Israel to respect the rights of the Palestinians and held it accountable for its war crimes.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]*Since the creation of the United Nations in 1945, no country has violated as many UN Security Council Resolutions as the state of Israel. In spite of this fact, Israel, a country slightly smaller than the state of New Jersey, receives nearly 1/3 of the entire annual US Foreign Aid budget.

*As a permanent member of the UN Security Council, the United States has the power to veto any Resolution it wishes, and has used this veto power more than 20 times since 1973, to thwart the will of the Council, and to shield Israel from any consequenses for its actions.

*According to a report released by the Israeli Peace Now movement, the Israeli government spent well over US$533 million in sustaining the illegal Jewish settlements in the occupied territories in 2001, more than half of that amount provided by United States tax-funded economic aid.

Source
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sat 02 Sep 2006, 00:20:34

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '
') $this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('miki', 'W')e'll never know, cause Israel has never "given" any land for good. Whatever they "give" (and whatever they don't "give"), they invade or steal soon after.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PMS', 'T')hey gave The Sinai back to Egypt and they haven't invaded there. Maybe the Palestinians need a Sadat.

I was referring to land returned to the Palestinins.
Maybe the Palestinians are too depressed and traumatized to deal with. But Israel has shown that it will give land back and make peace with those ready to do the same. They pulled their settlers out of Gaza. They elected a government committed to doing the same on the West Bank, but now that's gone down the drain thanks to your friends in The Party Of God.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')s per suicide bombing, it is very hard to understand to anyone outside the Palestinian situation. It took me a while to grasp it myself. Mind you that I don't condone it---but I understand the "logic" behind it. You see, the Palestinian guerrillas are like ants fighting the IDF. They are completely impotent. But the IDF continues to violate their rights and kill many civilians. Many believe that suicide bombing Israeli civilians is the only way to put pressure on the Israeli government to stop killing Palestinian civilians. I also imagine many Palestinians are traumatized and depressed enough to feel that killing themselves is not so difficult.
And the hate and the impotence that they feel would fill anyone with enough adrenaline to dare to do anything, including killing one's self to achieve some revenge/justice/put pressure on Israel.
I sense a little ambiguity in your thinking. I've read your posts saying that Palestinians just want to return to East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the West Bank, i.e. "Palestine" as you referenced with the wickipedia article. But haven't I also read your posts stating that Israel is an apartheid non-democratic country and they need to let the Palestinians return so they can vote the state of Israel out of existence. You did say something like that didn't you? So which is it?


BTW, if the Zionists of the thirties did a deal with the devil to realize their dream of a return to the Jewish Homeland, that's one thing. The Palestinians backed Hitler, did they not? They backed the wrong side, in a major way. Somehow that seems central to all of this, in a historical sense.

Also, I would like to say again that I think you are a tough-minded and powerful debater, and I respect and value your thoughts. I'm not one of those who would resort to emotional obfuscation and rejection as a tactic in dealing with you. I also casted one of the two votes in the miki poll for "Cave in Like PMS". Some folks just don't get it. :)
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby Miki » Sat 02 Sep 2006, 14:55:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'M')aybe the Palestinians are too depressed and traumatized to deal with. But Israel has shown that it will give land back and make peace with those ready to do the same. They pulled their settlers out of Gaza. They elected a government committed to doing the same on the West Bank, but now that's gone down the drain thanks to your friends in The Party Of God.


Politics are very dirty PMS. I wouldn't believe that Israel is willing to withdraw completely from the territories until they actually do it and stay out. Talk is cheap. Also, they have many ways of expropriating the land (eg, illegal confiscations). The illegal settlers are not the only problem. There needs to be a complete withdrawal in all aspects (political, economic, etc). Otherwise, the state of Israel can find another way to confiscate or control the land. After all, they consider everything is Israeli territory, regardless of whether it is in the Palestinian territories or not.

As for Hisballah, I don't see what that has to do with leaving the occupied territories. The Israelis were supposed to withdraw from the occupied territories way before Hisballah even existed (Hisballah was created in 1983). One can even argue that Israel made those "land concessions" because they were preparing for an atack against both Hamas and Hisballah and they knew they could easily get back control over the land. But that's just a hypothesis, of course.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') sense a little ambiguity in your thinking. I've read your posts saying that Palestinians just want to return to East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the West Bank, i.e. "Palestine" as you referenced with the wickipedia article. But haven't I also read your posts stating that Israel is an apartheid non-democratic country and they need to let the Palestinians return so they can vote the state of Israel out of existence. You did say something like that didn't you? So which is it?


You're right. I was ambiguous about it. They have the right to return to Israel, not just Palestine. You see, the original UN resolution says that the refugees have the choice of returning to "their homes" or to be given a compensation (whatever they choose). As most of the houses are probably not there anymore,
I'm assuming they have the right to return to Israel and live wherever they want. So yes, they would return to Israel, and that would imply that there would be more Israeli Arabs in Israel. If they were given the same rights to vote that the Israeli Jews have, then they would probably vote to improve their rights in Israel and impose a state that benefits both Arabs and Jews.

I admit that it's a very tricky situation, but the solution is not to deny Palestinians their rights, but to find some compromise in which both the interests of the Jews and the interests of the Arabs are represented in the government. Maybe they should do like us (Lebanese): By law, we have a Christian president, a Sunni Muslim PM, and a mixed congress. This is not 100% democratic, as 40% of Lebanese are Shiah today, but it keeps Lebanese from killing each other, so it's working so far. And even the Shiah's are fine with it. Of course it took 40 years of civil war (with syrian and Israeli collaboration) to make them figure that out :).

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Palestinians backed Hitler, did they not? They backed the wrong side, in a major way. Somehow that seems central to all of this, in a historical sense.


Well, then the Jews should have created their homeland in Europe, cause those were the main nations that backed Hitler, not Palestine.

It is my understanding that the Jews decided to migrate either to Palestine or Argentina. Can you imagine if they had chosen Argentina? Latin America would be a huge country called Yisrael America 8O.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lso, I would like to say again that I think you are a tough-minded and powerful debater, and I respect and value your thoughts. I'm not one of those who would resort to emotional obfuscation and rejection as a tactic in dealing with you. I also casted one of the two votes in the miki poll for "Cave in Like PMS". Some folks just don't get it. :)


Well thanks PMS. I don't think you "caved in" at all. On the contrary, you're one of the few people who actually challenge what I say and make me think. Many of those who "don't cave in" resort to disrespect or just press the ignore button, for lack of any valid responses. I don't think you agree with me more than they do; you just have a more mature way to address the disagreement, and you're more open to considering other sources of information/perspectives. There's nothing "weak" about that. On the contrary, it shows maturity, wisdom, an a genuine desire to be objective.
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Sat 02 Sep 2006, 16:26:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '
')As for Hisballah, I don't see what that has to do with leaving the occupied territories.
The reason Hezbollah has to do with leaving the territories conquered in defensive wars (territories, btw, that never were a "Palestinian" country) is that the public opinion in Israel has been moved in the direction of intransigence and stalwart resistance to their enemies by all these recent developments. The Jews are tired of this and they want peace, but they will fight, make no mistake. They have also demonstrated that if their enemies hide behind civilians, that they won't hesitate to press on. Lebanese Shi'ites know this now. Hezbollah has some serious problems as a result of their "victory".

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') sense a little ambiguity in your thinking. I've read your posts saying that Palestinians just want to return to East Jerusalem, Gaza, and the West Bank, i.e. "Palestine" as you referenced with the wickipedia article. But haven't I also read your posts stating that Israel is an apartheid non-democratic country and they need to let the Palestinians return so they can vote the state of Israel out of existence. You did say something like that didn't you? So which is it?


You're right. I was ambiguous about it. They have the right to return to Israel, not just Palestine. You see, the original UN resolution says that the refugees have the choice of returning to "their homes" or to be given a compensation (whatever they choose). As most of the houses are probably not there anymore,
I'm assuming they have the right to return to Israel and live wherever they want. So yes, they would return to Israel, and that would imply that there would be more Israeli Arabs in Israel. If they were given the same rights to vote that the Israeli Jews have, then they would probably vote to improve their rights in Israel and impose a state that benefits both Arabs and Jews.
I'm glad we cleared up the ambiguity.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Palestinians backed Hitler, did they not? They backed the wrong side, in a major way. Somehow that seems central to all of this, in a historical sense.


Well, then the Jews should have created their homeland in Europe, cause those were the main nations that backed Hitler, not Palestine.One of Yasser Arafat's heros was Amin al-Husayni. I posted links about that. Palestinian leadership was certainly very much behind Hitler.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')lso, I would like to say again that I think you are a tough-minded and powerful debater, and I respect and value your thoughts. I'm not one of those who would resort to emotional obfuscation and rejection as a tactic in dealing with you. I also casted one of the two votes in the miki poll for "Cave in Like PMS". Some folks just don't get it. :)

Well thanks PMS. I don't think you "caved in" at all. On the contrary, you're one of the few people who actually challenge what I say and make me think. Many of those who "don't cave in" resort to disrespect or just press the ignore button, for lack of any valid responses. I don't think you agree with me more than they do; you just have a more mature way to address the disagreement, and you're more open to considering other sources of information/perspectives. There's nothing "weak" about that. On the contrary, it shows maturity, wisdom, an a genuine desire to be objective.Isn't it funny how people with such divergent views of the world can still form a mutual-admiration society? 8)
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby lateralus » Sat 02 Sep 2006, 16:33:55

I'm sick and tired of hearing about Israel. You Americans have an entire fucked up country of your own to worry about, let alone taking on the bullshit of another "la la land nation" that you seem to be so "biblically infatuated with". Get your head out of your damn bible and wake the hell up to modern geo-politics. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh........ :P 8O
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby Eli » Sat 02 Sep 2006, 17:24:16

Miki

I understand your opinion that the Palestinians have the right to return to the land now known as Israel if they wish. I also recognize that you are not alone in holding that opinion.

But it is never ever going to happen without a war.
The Nation of Israel would no longer exist as a Jewish nation if the right of return was honored, you say so yourself.

The Israelis are never going to sit down and negotiate their own National suicide.

The idea of RoR is why men and women fight wars.
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby mekrob » Tue 05 Sep 2006, 10:25:15

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne of Yasser Arafat's heros was Amin al-Husayni. I posted links about that. Palestinian leadership was certainly very much behind Hitler.


The (Grand) Mufti was actually Arafat's uncle. As far as being behind Hitler, I'm not so sure. Mufti supported Hitler only because Hitler promised a Palestinian state. It's not like the US or any other nation hadn't supported dictators and murderers to get what they wanted.
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby Miki » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 14:55:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'T')hey have also demonstrated that if their enemies hide behind civilians, that they won't hesitate to press on.


1-The "self-defense" rhetoric is just an excuse to keep and expand their illegal settlements. A few days ago, Israel created over 700 new illegal settlements!!!! They are Suffocating Gaza to Seize Jerusalem. Are you disingenious enough to believe this was not planned before the war? Are you disingenous enough to think that Israel engaged in this last war in Gaza because of the captured soldier? A better reason would be to eliminate the democratically elected Hamas government, and to expand their settlements with a "legitimate" reason. The EU has already objected this new settlements, claiming that they are a serious obstacle to a peaceful two-state solution.

2-Israel has refused to negotiate for peace in fair terms several times. They even refused a 10-100 year truce proposed by Hamas in exchange of going back to the 1967 limits (Source). Doesn't that tell you something about Israel's real agenda?

The Israeli people probably want peace and security, but the Israeli government is and will likely always be a zionist (imperialist)entity with an insatiable thirst for territorial expansion. Israel is governed by their army, no matter who is the president. A country created through ethnic cleansing, maintained through ethnic cleansing, and governed by its army is not precisely a peaceful state.

BTW, there is no evidence that Hisballah hid behind civilians. According to a Human Rights Watch's investigation, there was no evidence whatsoever that Hsballah was doing that. Just because the IDF says it, it doesn't mean that it's true. Keep in mind that these (the IDF) are the same people who bombed an ambulance, a UN post, a few refugee shelters, a convoy escorted by the UN, and a reuters car, all "by mistake".

The IDF, on the other hand, has undisputably used civilians as shelters:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')'Tselem investigation: IDF used civilians, including minors,
as human shields during gun-battle in Beit Hanun

Today B'Tselem publishes its initial investigation into the Israeli military operation in Beit Hanun, northern Gaza Strip, on July 17. The investigation indicates that during the operation, soldiers took over two buildings in the town, and used six residents as human shields over a period of 12 hours. During this time, there were intensive exchanges of gunfire at the site. Among the buildings' occupants were two minors.

During this time, the soldiers endangered the lives of the civilians by forcing them to remain in a site of fighting, in order to protect the soldiers from gunfire from armed Palestinians. Among other things, the soldiers forced a female occupant of one apartment to walk in front of them while they searched the apartments, and handcuffed occupants and forced them to remain in a stairwell exposed to gunfire.


Source

Now THAT is using civilians as human shields.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne of Yasser Arafat's heros was Amin al-Husayni. I posted links about that. Palestinian leadership was certainly very much behind Hitler.


Germany's leadership was Hitler. I'm missing what's your point here. If it's about the holocaust, let the Jews go to Germany. That would have been more fair, and they could have lived in peace and left the Arabs live in peace.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')sn't it funny how people with such divergent views of the world can still form a mutual-admiration society? 8)


It's called respect :).

Eli, you said:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')ut it is never ever going to happen without a war.
The Nation of Israel would no longer exist as a Jewish nation if the right of return was honored, you say so yourself.

The Israelis are never going to sit down and negotiate their own National suicide.

1-What the Israelis want does not take precedence over international law, UN resolutions, democracy and human rights.

2-It wouldn't be the first or last regime change in the world.

3-Israel would still have a government that defended the rights of the Israeli Jews. In Lebanon, we have laws that guarantee that the interests of different religious groups are represented in the government. Those laws apply regardless of the proportion of citizens that belong to each religion. The only reason for this is that we know that a government composed of only one religion would trigger a civil war.

4-The Israeli Jews would not lose any of their rights in Israel. And the US would be the first to enforce the respect of their rights.
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby rwwff » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 17:13:26

Time for a dose of reality here I see....

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Israelis are never going to sit down and negotiate their own National suicide.

1-What the Israelis want does not take precedence over international law, UN resolutions, democracy and human rights.


Umm, I'd have to say that Israeli needs do take precedence over international law, UN resolutions, democracy, and human rights. Thats the fact on the ground. Maybe not the shoulda/woulda/coulda, but it definately is the reality.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '2')-It wouldn't be the first or last regime change in the world.
Israel's about to have one shortly. Likud will be much more ... um... entertaining?.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '3')-Israel would still have a government that defended the rights of the Israeli Jews. In Lebanon, we have laws that guarantee that the interests of different religious groups are represented in the government. Those laws apply regardless of the proportion of citizens that belong to each religion. The only reason for this is that we know that a government composed of only one religion would trigger a civil war.


That is only because an oppressed minority would be to poor to leave, giving them only the choice of fight or die. Most Israeli's would have the means to leave the region, if confronted with living under an Arab majority government. Which I think is the actual hope of those promoting the RoR issue. Israel is not blind to this fact, and thus, even if there are a thousand UN resolutions to the contrary, RoR will not occur until every Israeli nuclear missle silo is emptied. And at that point, I doubt anyone will care.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '4')-The Israeli Jews would not lose any of their rights in Israel. And the US would be the first to enforce the respect of their rights.

BS. They'd lose it all. In the current, modern world, if Israel can not act as the US's proxy of last resort in the region, able to provide relative safety and welcome to 500,000 US troops; then Israel would lose most of its strategic importance. At that point, US money would trickle to a halt, as would US interest from the Christian Zionists. It'd die as a political priority; which again, is something those proposing RoR are quietly hoping would be the result.

Thus... RoR will never, ever, occur. Rightly, or wrongly. That issue is a stinky, rotting fish on the shore, where it will remain to be picked over by wandering crabs and seagulls. But it will never swim again.
abundance fleeting
men falling like hungry leaves
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 18:08:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', 'I')t's not like the US or any other nation hadn't supported dictators and murderers to get what they wanted.


Like Preston Bush?
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 20:27:55

Gideon, Israel was established as a Jewish Homeland. It wasn't, "OK folks, here's a new country you all can go to." It was done as a result of the Holocaust. It should be remembered that the European Imperialist mindset was still strong in the minds of statesmen and political players in those days. Only those kinds of people could have decided upon the establishment of Israel. No doubt there was a feeling of guilt involved, and maybe hubris that they called the shots, maybe a feeling that a few sheep-herders and rich Arab grove owners didn't matter. I don't know the whole story but I do think that nothing like that would be done in today's climate. But now we have established political realities: generations of Jews living in Israel. I guess that there is a tribal quality to all this. The Middle East is very tribal in it's outlook, or so I've read. The exclusionary attitude is strong in that region. Saudis don't let Christian denominations into their land. Iranians, who used to be more tolerant, have become more xenophobic and reactionary, or at least their leadership has. And the Palestinians are stuck in a blood-feud mentality. That's why I call them "dead-enders." They need to quit it, stop with this nonsense. They can't win. Maybe they could adapt and make the best of things. But as long as they are blood-feuders, they'll never return to Israeli territory. I'm glad you found some of my posts to be reasoned. I try my best (most of the time). Maybe this helps.
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 20:49:24

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'G')ideon, Israel was established as a Jewish Homeland. It wasn't, "OK folks, here's a new country you all can go to." It was done as a result of the Holocaust.


Really, Lord Balfour was a clairvoyent?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'T')hey need to quit it, stop with this nonsense. They can't win.


They certainly can't with people like Bolton in the UN.
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 21:23:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'G')ideon, Israel was established as a Jewish Homeland. It wasn't, "OK folks, here's a new country you all can go to." It was done as a result of the Holocaust.


Really, Lord Balfour was a clairvoyent?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_De ... on%2C_1917

The Zionist movement was pretty heavy in the equation of WWI. In reading this very interesting article, I'm struck by how integrated Jews were into European affairs. But what were you saying, rog, about Lord Balfour being clairvoyant? Sounds to me like he wanted Jewish money for the war.
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 21:28:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'G')ideon, Israel was established as a Jewish Homeland. It wasn't, "OK folks, here's a new country you all can go to." It was done as a result of the Holocaust.


Really, Lord Balfour was a clairvoyent?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_De ... on%2C_1917

But what were you saying, rog, about Lord Balfour being clairvoyant?


Yes you said...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'I')t was done as a result of the Holocaust.


I was wondering how Balfour knew that in 1917, unless you meant Israel was set up as a result of the Armenian Holocaust.
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 21:34:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'G')ideon, Israel was established as a Jewish Homeland. It wasn't, "OK folks, here's a new country you all can go to." It was done as a result of the Holocaust.


Really, Lord Balfour was a clairvoyent?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_De ... on%2C_1917

But what were you saying, rog, about Lord Balfour being clairvoyant?


Yes you said...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'I')t was done as a result of the Holocaust.


I was wondering how Balfour knew that in 1917, unless you meant Israel was set up as a result of the Armenian Holocaust.OK, yes, I see what you are saying. Well, what can I say, it didn't happen until 1948. I guess the groundwork had been done and it took the Holocaust to make it actually happen.
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Re: Open Letter Re US Policy in the ME

Unread postby PenultimateManStanding » Wed 06 Sep 2006, 23:04:06

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Gideon', '
')
Well, that the evil concept was the seminal concept does not, it seems to me, make it OK.

A "homeland" that excludes people based on religion is, it seems to me, inherently evil.

I'll stand by my prediction that Israel is doomed.

Maybe you are right about Israel being doomed.. I do think that Israel is an outpost of Western Civilation in the Middle East. Western Civilization is dependent on oil. But this notion that "A homeland that excludes people based on religion is inherently evil" is silly and naive. What have you to say to Saudi Arabia? And furthermore the idea that it is evil to not let foreigners buy land is flouted in Mexico. Does that make them "evil" too?
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