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Why be so pessimistic???

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Unread postby backstop » Thu 18 Nov 2004, 12:50:02

Madpaddy - Cheer up - our grip on the planet is far more tenuous than it seems.

Being at the top of the food chain means we are also the point at which the buck stops. We won't get anywhere near "taking out the last stick of timber" before getting hit broadside by a wave of consequences of previous actions, destroying our ability to continue our irrational culture of "Consumption to demonstrate superiority".

Quite when and quite how suddenly that change comes is an open and imponderable question, but it is coming.

Given our urbo-centric culture's ability to utterly to ignore warnings as being 'unproven' (!) and unwelcome distractions from decadence, we are already enduring massive hits without a global change of course. Those hits are already taking the edge off our rates of consumption (viz hurricane Ivan) and they are intensifying exponentially. They will, in company with peak oil, end the growth of consumption and then reverse it inexorably.

For example, I've seen no discussion of closing the world's battery chicken farms on grounds of bio-hazard, yet they are perfect bacterial mutation facilities given that they rely on widespread use of anti-biotics to cull conventional strains of disease. One result is the so-called Asian Chicken flu that is now endemic in various parts of Asia, and has recently crossed the threshold of being transmitted person to person. Given further mutation of its virulence and contageousness it could easily be "a consequence of past actions" that terminates the present mechano-culture rather swiftly.

That said, life goes on and is there to be enjoyed. Yet with knowledge of this society's stupefied fragility, for me what is enjoyable changed not only to a simpler passive appreciation of natural beauty and the company of friends, but also to an active delight in effective campaigning on key issues of sustainability (be that climate change diplomacy or digging the veg garden). I note that none would be as enjoyable were I not putting time into the others.

So be assured that our present culture won't reduce the planet very much further, particularly if we pull our fingers out and promote razor-edged precedents of sustainable ways of life.

regards,

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Re: [b]Why be so pessimistic??? [/b]

Unread postby k_semler » Thu 18 Nov 2004, 14:12:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'W')hat are you clinging to?

Speed of transportation, sanitation, food that is readily available, electricity, modern medicine, SW radio, and an easy lifestyle compared to the rest of the world.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'T')his society sucks, look around you?

I agree. The corporate hijacking of America has degraded our society to a status little better than that of Adolus Huxley's Brave New World.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'T')he majority of you are fat,

Not even close. With my knives, wallet, coat, hat, pens, and steel toe boots on, I weigh 138 lbs. I am 5'11", so I would either classify as either a healthy weight, or underweight depending on the data you are looking at.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'e')conomic Elites hold all the cards,

Yes, one dollar is one vote. Welcome to the land of the bribed, home of the All Mighty Dollar.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'a') monopower is causing micro-wars on a yearly basis,

The DemoPublican party and their interests? Please define the term "monopower". And for the record, I do not believe in the existence of a secret society such as the Illuminati that controls the world. Discounting secret societies, (which may or may not exist), please define.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'a')nd the public cares more about the season finale of 'Friends' then the reasons why the Superpower invaded a third world country for reasons later to be determined false.

I could give a shit less what is broadcast on TV. It has little effect on me, as I have eliminated the idiot box from my life completely. I have not watched television since last May, and I do not intend to restart anytime soon. The reason why I have chosen to do this can be summed up in one word: commercials. I am not willing to put up with corporate drivel in the peace of my home. Also, to satisfy your inevitable question about how I get my news, I read the paper, and listen to AM and SW radio. As far as I am concerned, I would not care one bit if television were to completely drop off the face of the earth. About the only purpose television serves any more for me is that it separates me from the remainder of the population that thinks that what happened on Survivor or Joe Average is actually relevant to the world. Not that I would want to associate with these people anyhow. Also, television has also served the purpose to pollute the news updates on domestic AM broadcasts. When listening to an ABC Hourly Update, I want to know about the stock market, the war, economic status of the nation, and other tidbits. I could give a shit less about who got kicked off of Survivor, or what some stupid-ass pop/rock/sport/rock/movie/TV star did lately. I also did not really care about the Peterson trial. Big deal, people get killed somewhere every day on earth. It is not going to matter if one more insignificant person is exterminated.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'T')o satisfy Whether the crash is soft or hard, its unavoidable, and the benefits such as no longer killing the planet, and losing a majority of mentally and physically weak human beings is really a fair trade off for this society's behavior.


I agree.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'Y')ou would prefer this event-less existence which squanders your potential? Making you into a peon who's primary interest is to be rewarded by making someone else money? Going home to be seated in front of an image box forgetting your problems and what a futile role you fill? Damn, am i gonna miss hummers, McDonald's, and billions of racially separated dirty people.


The viewpoint of whether I have potential is a subjective matter, unless you are speaking from a purely physical standpoint. If you are speaking about personal satisfaction, i.e self-worth, then it is purely a subjective matter. The way I see it, the remainder of my life will be filled with a multitude of trials and tribulations, with a few positive aspects emerging
just long enough to convince me that there is indeed some purpose to my existence on earth. The only difference in a soft versus hard crash is the amount of time I have left to endure the drudgery of life. If a hard crash happened tomorrow, I would have maybe only 5 years left to endure life. If a soft crash, or no crash occurs, then I have possibly 50 years to live out the rest of my natural life. The question of happiness is futile. It has no effect on the end result. In the end, I will die. I do not have control over when, nor how, but I do know that my emotional state has virtually no bearing on when my life will end. Life sucks no matter what happens, and at best it just is. Get used to it. The world will not be better nor worse after the collapse, it will simply be different.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'N')uclear war? pfft, won't kill us all, we will start over with a hard lesson learned.
I agree.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'P')ocket survival will be the worst case scenario, with a 2 in 6 billion possibility of extinction...
Where did you get these statistics of 2:6,000,000,000? I would like to see the figures please. Fossil records indicate that most species once alive in the past are now extinct. I once saw a figure of 99%+ of all species once alive are now extinct, but I do not remember the source. This pretty much sums it up for me that one day humanity will become extinct its self. That is almost ensured. Whether that extinction is by our own hand, or events that we cannot control is a matter of debate.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', '(')In that event New Zealand will be the new cradle of civilization) ;)
LOL :D

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'I')ts not a sustainable society, even with the absence of 'peak oil', get over it, get a garden, and move on.
Honestly, how much of a difference do you think that your little garden will have on the planet, or upon the fate of humanity? Not much of an effect. Yes, you may be able to sustain yourself and family, but you will need to grow enough produce in one growing season to supply your needs for a whole year. This is difficult to do, but it can be done. You will also need to protect your garden from pests, weeds, wildlife, domesticated animals, disease, and looters. If you assume a no collapse scenario, your garden will have virtually no effect on either your sustenance, or the well being on humanity as a whole. Discounting a collapse situation, why bother growing your own food? Self sustenance is only cheaper if your time is worthless. If your time is worthless, come be my slave. I will pay you according to your time, which would be nothing.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'B')ut tell me if I'm wrong, how and why... etc. I realize some buttons probably were pressed, sorry but lamenting this transition isn't worth it.
I just did. Yes, worrying about the impending peak will provide little benefit, but dismissing the possible consequences provides absolutely no benefit. Given the choice of little benefit, or no benefit; I choose the former. I have virtually nothing to look forward to whether a collapse comes or not. My motto is: Life sucks, then you die.
Here Lies the United States Of America.

July 04, 1776 - June 23 2005

Epitaph: "The Experiment Is Over."

Rest In Peace.

Eminent Domain Was The Murderer.
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Unread postby Madpaddy » Thu 18 Nov 2004, 15:03:04

Hi Backstop,

Funny how your reply to my last post put me in better form. Anyway goodnight to the board - I'm off to enjoy my second wedding anniversary. I won't forget to put the lights out when I leave the building.

Go n'eiri an bothar leat.
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Unread postby Horace » Thu 18 Nov 2004, 19:09:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Madpaddy', 'S')eriously though, do you think that the 4 billion who need to die before the rest of us can get on with things will just lie down and decompose. Personally I think PO will finish off the environment. Every stick of timber, lump of coal and molecule of gas will be burnt before the end. That is what scares me. The earth will look like the harvesting fields in Thr Matrix by the time we are finished.



I'm new to these boards, and while I share a lot of the concern about our lack of any preparation for peak oil, I tend to think it will not bring about a die-off scenario.

I'm hopeful that some form of alternative energy WILL emerge from the chaos, and the remaining oil, though declining, will be enough to maintain society as we know it during the transtition.

My personal hope is that the environment CAN survive this transition, and can be gradually improved through 2070, when the world's population itself peaks and begins to decline naturally, due to reduced fertility rates.

http://www.ncpa.org/pi/internat/pd080201c.html

My two cents.
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Re: [b]Why be so pessimistic??? [/b]

Unread postby Garrelic » Thu 18 Nov 2004, 19:31:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'W')hat are you clinging to?

Speed of transportation, sanitation, food that is readily available, electricity, modern medicine, SW radio, and an easy lifestyle compared to the rest of the world.

Oh yes and i would trade indefinate survival from nuclear and biological weapons, along with pollution social divide,

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'T')his society sucks, look around you?

I agree. The corporate hijacking of America has degraded our society to a status little better than that of Adolus Huxley's Brave New World.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'T')he majority of you are fat,

Not even close. With my knives, wallet, coat, hat, pens, and steel toe boots on, I weigh 138 lbs. I am 5'11", so I would either classify as either a healthy weight, or underweight depending on the data you are looking at.

(wow.. you're pretty scrawny, and you didn't pick up on the existence of the word 'majority')
the point essentially is that this society doesn't promote fitness of a healthy lifestyle.
http://www.thedailystar.com/news/storie ... study.html
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massac ... t_in_mass/

this is subjective to region, but to the west it is somewhat general

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'e')conomic Elites hold all the cards,

Yes, one dollar is one vote. Welcome to the land of the bribed, home of the All Mighty Dollar.

... okay

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'a') monopower is causing micro-wars on a yearly basis,
The DemoPublican party and their interests? Please define the term "monopower". And for the record, I do not believe in the existence of a secret society such as the Illuminati that controls the world. Discounting secret societies, (which may or may not exist), please define.

Sorry but there is no talk of secret societies, good job on making shit up though...

Okay I would think this would be self explainitory,
Mono: one... Power: possession of controlling influence; "the deterrent power of nuclear weapons"; "the power of his love saved her"
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/power

Name me the US's equal? Military? economy? influence? Culturally? (debatably japan, but not even close)

Wait, I'm sorry but am i going to have to give you a lecture on what neo-liberalism is? Or how about the US making up 30 % of the world's GDP,-The Grand Chessboard (US foriegn policy book) and outspending the world by far in military spending? are you going to tell me that Iraq II wasn't the US's intention? Chechnia? Gulf war I (Iraq warned the US of what they were going to do) Vietnam? East Timor wasn't strengthened by US arms sales? Iraq wasnt sponsored by the US in iran iraq war?
(All countries have this dark history, the US just has a bigger influence, an is most current)

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'a')nd the public cares more about the season finale of 'Friends' then the reasons why the Superpower invaded a third world country for reasons later to be determined false.

I could give a shit less what is broadcast on TV. It has little effect on me, as I have eliminated the idiot box from my life completely. I have not watched television since last May, and I do not intend to restart anytime soon. The reason why I have chosen to do this can be summed up in one word: commercials. I am not willing to put up with corporate drivel in the peace of my home. Also, to satisfy your inevitable question about how I get my news, I read the paper, and listen to AM and SW radio. As far as I am concerned, I would not care one bit if television were to completely drop off the face of the earth. About the only purpose television serves any more for me is that it separates me from the remainder of the population that thinks that what happened on Survivor or Joe Average is actually relevant to the world. Not that I would want to associate with these people anyhow. Also, television has also served the purpose to pollute the news updates on domestic AM broadcasts. When listening to an ABC Hourly Update, I want to know about the stock market, the war, economic status of the nation, and other tidbits. I could give a shit less about who got kicked off of Survivor, or what some stupid-ass pop/rock/sport/rock/movie/TV star did lately. I also did not really care about the Peterson trial. Big deal, people get killed somewhere every day on earth. It is not going to matter if one more insignificant person is exterminated.

I really wasn't accusisng you of anything

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'T')o satisfy Whether the crash is soft or hard, its unavoidable, and the benefits such as no longer killing the planet, and losing a majority of mentally and physically weak human beings is really a fair trade off for this society's behavior.

I agree.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'Y')ou would prefer this event-less existence which squanders your potential? Making you into a peon who's primary interest is to be rewarded by making someone else money? Going home to be seated in front of an image box forgetting your problems and what a futile role you fill? Damn, am i gonna miss hummers, McDonald's, and billions of racially separated dirty people.

The viewpoint of whether I have potential is a subjective matter, unless you are speaking from a purely physical standpoint. If you are speaking about personal satisfaction, i.e self-worth, then it is purely a subjective matter. The way I see it, the remainder of my life will be filled with a multitude of trials and tribulations, with a few positive aspects emerging
just long enough to convince me that there is indeed some purpose to my existence on earth. The only difference in a soft versus hard crash is the amount of time I have left to endure the drudgery of life. If a hard crash happened tomorrow, I would have maybe only 5 years left to endure life. If a soft crash, or no crash occurs, then I have possibly 50 years to live out the rest of my natural life. The question of happiness is futile. It has no effect on the end result. In the end, I will die. I do not have control over when, nor how, but I do know that my emotional state has virtually no bearing on when my life will end. Life sucks no matter what happens, and at best it just is. Get used to it. The world will not be better nor worse after the collapse, it will simply be different.

couldnt have said it better myself


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'N')uclear war? pfft, won't kill us all, we will start over with a hard lesson learned.
I agree.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'P')ocket survival will be the worst case scenario, with a 2 in 6 billion possibility of extinction...
Where did you get these statistics of 2:6,000,000,000? I would like to see the figures please. Fossil records indicate that most species once alive in the past are now extinct. I once saw a figure of 99%+ of all species once alive are now extinct, but I do not remember the source. This pretty much sums it up for me that one day humanity will become extinct its self. That is almost ensured. Whether that extinction is by our own hand, or events that we cannot control is a matter of debate.

How many people does it take to create another?, what is a very general estimation to the world population... understood its a general statistic, but you have trouble provide an accurate one.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', '(')In that event New Zealand will be the new cradle of civilization) ;)
LOL :D

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'I')ts not a sustainable society, even with the absence of 'peak oil', get over it, get a garden, and move on.

Honestly, how much of a difference do you think that your little garden will have on the planet, or upon the fate of humanity?

ahh, my mouth is having words and concepts placed in it.

Not much of an effect.
could have told you that...

Yes, you may be able to sustain yourself and family, but you will need to grow enough produce in one growing season to supply your needs for a whole year.

with an agricultural strategy that mimics 'feuda agriculture' styles of crop rotation and growth seasons(it is a north european style which fits nicely with my region), then yes i will be able to survive, assuming i am able to prevent pillaging...

This is difficult to do, but it can be done.

You will also need to protect your garden from pests, weeds, wildlife, domesticated animals, disease, and looters.

The right location without vehicles being used would isolate you, I think with the right effort communities of farming can occur along with things like fences.

If you assume a no collapse scenario, your garden will have virtually no effect on either your sustenance, or the well being on humanity as a whole.

are you saying organic foods aren't good for you :lol: JK, but i'm pretty confident unless an all purpose substitute is found the economy and my chance of being employed suck.

Present me with a better solution? besides a futile hope of avoiding peak oil with awareness and government action...

Discounting a collapse situation, why bother growing your own food? Self sustenance is only cheaper if your time is worthless. If your time is worthless, come be my slave. I will pay you according to your time, which would be nothing.

Economic depression, the fact in the case of an economic depression you now have a source of income, the economic regression is inavoidable with the resources not being sent to the economy but instead energy prices and fuel prices, I dont recall saying my time is worthless.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'B')ut tell me if I'm wrong, how and why... etc. I realize some buttons probably were pressed, sorry but lamenting this transition isn't worth it.
I just did.

sorry that you weren't fat? How am I wrong, sorry i need a refresher...

Yes, worrying about the impending peak will provide little benefit,
I disagree worrying will cause some self preservation to kick in, but i dont believe being a depressed 'end of life' scenario is irrational
but dismissing the possible consequences provides absolutely no benefit. Sorry i didnt recall saying there were going to be no consequences, i in fact said many deaths would occur? i suppose i could have been more descriptive, but look at your world and its going to be the same garbage just on a smaller less self-destructive size

Given the choice of little benefit, or no benefit; I choose the former.
Thanks for your opinion, doesn't prove me wrong however...

I have virtually nothing to look forward to whether a collapse comes or not. My motto is: Life sucks, then you die.

to experience a new chapter in history isnt exciting to you? to observe the potential regression or collapse doesnt seem interesting?
so you would prefer to live a 5 day work week with 2 days of leasure?
understood that self sufficiency is hard work, however it is more directly meaningful then working for a sum of money which is dwarfed by your superiors and will be mostly used on items you won't need.

The lack of medicines and healthcare is a negative, but I'm pretty Nihilistic
and like the idea of practical evolution occuring.
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Unread postby Garrelic » Thu 18 Nov 2004, 19:33:33

Speed of transportation, sanitation, food that is readily available, electricity, modern medicine, SW radio, and an easy lifestyle compared to the rest of the world.

Oh yes and i would trade indefinate survival from nuclear and biological weapons, along with pollution, and the possibility of global war, which by murphy's law dooms us, for all those wonderful things i could do without...
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Re: Why be so pessimistic???

Unread postby BabyPeanut » Thu 18 Nov 2004, 22:18:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'W')hat are you clinging to? This society sucks, look around you? The majority of you are fat, economic Elites hold all the cards, a monopower is causing micro-wars on a yearly basis, and the public cares more about the season finale of 'Friends' then the reasons why the Superpower invaded a third world country for reasons later to be determined false.

Small war is one of the yokes on the 3rd world. We can't let them grow into consumers like us as that will be the end of oil even faster.
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Re: Why be so pessimistic???

Unread postby Garrelic » Fri 19 Nov 2004, 16:53:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BabyPeanut', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'W')hat are you clinging to? This society sucks, look around you? The majority of you are fat, economic Elites hold all the cards, a monopower is causing micro-wars on a yearly basis, and the public cares more about the season finale of 'Friends' then the reasons why the Superpower invaded a third world country for reasons later to be determined false.

Small war is one of the yokes on the 3rd world. We can't let them grow into consumers like us as that will be the end of oil even faster.


economic sanctions can accomplish that morbid goal without the presence of war...
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Re: [b]Why be so pessimistic??? [/b]

Unread postby k_semler » Fri 19 Nov 2004, 17:22:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'W')hat are you clinging to?

Speed of transportation, sanitation, food that is readily available, electricity, modern medicine, SW radio, and an easy lifestyle compared to the rest of the world.

Oh yes and i would trade indefinite survival from nuclear and biological weapons, along with pollution social divide, ,


No matter what happens, survival beyond the very second that you are living right now is an uncertainty. For all you know, the structural integrity of your home could fail in .05 seconds, and you would be dead. No amount of preparation will help you survive unforeseen circumstances.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'T')his society sucks, look around you?

I agree. The corporate hijacking of America has degraded our society to a status little better than that of Adolus Huxley's Brave New World.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'T')he majority of you are fat,

Not even close. With my knives, wallet, coat, hat, pens, and steel toe boots on, I weigh 138 lbs. I am 5'11", so I would either classify as either a healthy weight, or underweight depending on the data you are looking at.

(wow.. you're pretty scrawny, and you didn't pick up on the existence of the word 'majority')
the point essentially is that this society doesn't promote fitness of a healthy lifestyle.
http://www.thedailystar.com/news/storie ... study.html
http://www.boston.com/news/local/massac ... t_in_mass/

Better to be a beanpole than a fat tub of shit that would bounce all the way down a hill if pushed. And yes, Americans are an obese people, but not only Americans visit this site, so "the majority of us" being overweight may not necessarily be true. In America, the obesity percentage may approach 60%, but in other areas of the world, (such as Germany), it is less than 30%. So taking both ends of the spectrum, the amount of overweight individuals frequenting this site is closer to 45%. Considering < 50% is required to make a majority, this statement would be false. If you meant "most of you Americans are fat", you would be correct statistically.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 't')his is subjective to region, but to the west it is somewhat general

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'e')conomic Elites hold all the cards,
Yes, one dollar is one vote. Welcome to the land of the bribed, home of the All Mighty Dollar.

... okay

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'a') monopower is causing micro-wars on a yearly basis,
The DemoPublican party and their interests? Please define the term "monopower". And for the record, I do not believe in the existence of a secret society such as the Illuminati that controls the world. Discounting secret societies, (which may or may not exist), please define.

Sorry but there is no talk of secret societies, good job on making shit up though...

Okay I would think this would be self explanatory,
Mono: one... Power: possession of controlling influence; "the deterrent power of nuclear weapons"; "the power of his love saved her"
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/power

Name me the US's equal? Military? economy? influence? Culturally? (debatable japan, but not even close)


Some people do believe in the existence of a secret elite society controlling the world that are mutant lizard-men. Just listen to "Coast to Coast AM" when they talk about secret societies. I was not accusing you of believing this line of crap, I just wanted to specify that I do not buy into it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'W')ait, I'm sorry but am i going to have to give you a lecture on what neo-liberalism is?
Yes, for I have never heard this term, nor do I know what "neo-liberalism" stands for. If it is a more right democratic party, I may be interested. If it is closer to communism, I will have virtually no interest.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'O')r how about the US making up 30 % of the world's GDP,-The Grand Chessboard (US foreign policy book) and outspending the world by far in military spending?
More dollars equals more power equals more spending. What's your point?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'a')re you going to tell me that Iraq II wasn't the US's intention? Chechnya? Gulf war I (Iraq warned the US of what they were going to do) Vietnam?
The only issue I would disagree on is Vietnam. In the 50's when the Vietnamese over thew the French imperialist forces. The country then split into two countries, North and South Vietnam. Attempting to establish diplomatic relations with the newly formed nation of South Vietnam, we sent diplomats, money, and weapons to support their newly founded nation. The NVA then decided to invade the south to re-unite the country under a communist flag. Backed by the Chinese and Russians, the NVA succeeded in forcibly seizing the South Vietnam after roughly 15 years of bloody combat.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'E')ast Timor wasn't strengthened by US arms sales? Iraq wasn't sponsored by the US in Iran Iraq war? (All countries have this dark history, the US just has a bigger influence, as in most current).

"The enemy of my enemy is a temporary friend." We also used this on the Russians in Afghanistan. We wanted to give them their Vietnam war. the CIA helped fund the "freedom fighters", which later became Al-Quadia. In a way, we created the very enemy we are now fighting a global war costing trillions of dollars. It kind of reminds me of releasing snakes in a field to eliminate the rat population, only to be faced with a greater danger by the snakes than the rats ever presented in the first place. At least the USSR was a superpower with actual borders. The enemy we are facing now is a people with no borders, language, and the only distinguishing characteristic is they are Arab Muslims. Not all Muslims are our enemy, but all our enemies are Muslim.

As far as the US's equal, there is virtually none in all aspects. Taking each area you gave, I can name the Chinese as a competing military power conventionally, the Russians as far as nuclear capabilities, the EU as far as economic influence, culture I would have to say Bud dist India. In what area do you mean influence? technology? Then I would have to list Japan.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'a')nd the public cares more about the season finale of 'Friends' then the reasons why the Superpower invaded a third world country for reasons later to be determined false.

I could give a shit less what is broadcast on TV. It has little effect on me, as I have eliminated the idiot box from my life completely. I have not watched television since last May, and I do not intend to restart anytime soon. The reason why I have chosen to do this can be summed up in one word: commercials. I am not willing to put up with corporate drivel in the peace of my home. Also, to satisfy your inevitable question about how I get my news, I read the paper, and listen to AM and SW radio. As far as I am concerned, I would not care one bit if television were to completely drop off the face of the earth. About the only purpose television serves any more for me is that it separates me from the remainder of the population that thinks that what happened on Survivor or Joe Average is actually relevant to the world. Not that I would want to associate with these people anyhow. Also, television has also served the purpose to pollute the news updates on domestic AM broadcasts. When listening to an ABC Hourly Update, I want to know about the stock market, the war, economic status of the nation, and other tidbits. I could give a shit less about who got kicked off of Survivor, or what some stupid-ass pop/rock/sport/rock/movie/TV star did lately. I also did not really care about the Peterson trial. Big deal, people get killed somewhere every day on earth. It is not going to matter if one more insignificant person is exterminated.

I really wasn't accessing you of anything

I am aware of this, I was simply pointing out the fact that I am almost on the border of hating television, I already dispose it. This makes me wonder, since I first started out simply disposing a guy at work, and now I actually want him dead, (I would throw a party at his funeral and piss on his grave after torching his corpse), I wonder if I will ever be driven to shoot my TV?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', '.')..
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'P')ocket survival will be the worst case scenario, with a 2 in 6 billion possibility of extinction...
Where did you get these statistics of 2:6,000,000,000? I would like to see the figures please. Fossil records indicate that most species once alive in the past are now extinct. I once saw a figure of 99%+ of all species once alive are now extinct, but I do not remember the source. This pretty much sums it up for me that one day humanity will become extinct its self. That is almost ensured. Whether that extinction is by our own hand, or events that we cannot control is a matter of debate.

How many people does it take to create another?, what is a very general estimation to the world population... understood its a general statistic, but you have trouble provide an accurate one.

Yes, it does only take two individuals to reproduce given that both are of the opposite sex and completely fertile, but in order to eliminate inbreeding, it would be advisable to have more than 2 persons on earth, ideally several thousand people to compromise a wide genetic base for the rebuilding of society. Also it would not do much good if one of these last two survivors was located in China while the other one was located in America. Distance would be too great to make breeding feasible.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'I')ts not a sustainable society, even with the absence of 'peak oil', get over it, get a garden, and move on.

Honestly, how much of a difference do you think that your little garden will have on the planet, or upon the fate of humanity?

ahh, my mouth is having words and concepts placed in it.,
You advocated starting a garden to reduce the impact, therefore you must support it. Generally a person does not advocate an action unless that action is approved of personally.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', '[')b]Not much of an effect.
could have told you that...

Yes, you may be able to sustain yourself and family, but you will need to grow enough produce in one growing season to supply your needs for a whole year.

with an agricultural strategy that mimics 'feuda agriculture' styles of crop rotation and growth seasons(it is a north European style which fits nicely with my region), then yes i will be able to survive, assuming i am able to prevent pillaging...

Good, nice to see your plot has the potential to be self-sustaining.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', '[')b]This is difficult to do, but it can be done.

You will also need to protect your garden from pests, weeds, wildlife, domesticated animals, disease, and looters.

The right location without vehicles being used would isolate you, I think with the right effort communities of farming can occur along with things like fences.

I agree, I advise rotating guard shifts. A time unguarded is a time vulnerable, a time vulnerable is a time exploited, a time exploited is a time of death.

If you assume a no collapse scenario, your garden will have virtually no effect on either your sustenance, or the well being on humanity as a whole.

are you saying organic foods aren't good for you :lol: JK, but I'm pretty confident unless an all purpose substitute is found the economy and my chance of being employed suck.

Present me with a better solution? besides a futile hope of avoiding peak oil with awareness and government action...

Discounting a collapse situation, why bother growing your own food? Self sustenance is only cheaper if your time is worthless. If your time is worthless, come be my slave. I will pay you according to your time, which would be nothing.

Economic depression, the fact in the case of an economic depression you now have a source of income, the economic regression is unavoidable with the resources not being sent to the economy but instead energy prices and fuel prices, I don't recall saying my time is worthless.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', 'B')ut tell me if I'm wrong, how and why... etc. I realize some buttons probably were pressed, sorry but lamenting this transition isn't worth it.
I just did.

sorry that you weren't fat? How am I wrong, sorry i need a refresher...

Yes, worrying about the impending peak will provide little benefit,
I disagree worrying will cause some self preservation to kick in, but i don't believe being a depressed 'end of life' scenario is irrational
but dismissing the possible consequences provides absolutely no benefit. Sorry i didn't recall saying there were going to be no consequences, i in fact said many deaths would occur? i suppose i could have been more descriptive, but look at your world and its going to be the same garbage just on a smaller less self-destructive size

Given the choice of little benefit, or no benefit; I choose the former.
Thanks for your opinion, doesn't prove me wrong however...

I have virtually nothing to look forward to whether a collapse comes or not. My motto is: Life sucks, then you die.

to experience a new chapter in history isn't exciting to you? to observe the potential regression or collapse doesn't seem interesting?
so you would prefer to live a 5 day work week with 2 days of leisure?
understood that self sufficiency is hard work, however it is more directly meaningful then working for a sum of money which is dwarfed by your superiors and will be mostly used on items you won't need.

The lack of medicines and health care is a negative, but I'm pretty Nihilistic
and like the idea of practical evolution occurring.[/quote]
Here Lies the United States Of America.

July 04, 1776 - June 23 2005

Epitaph: "The Experiment Is Over."

Rest In Peace.

Eminent Domain Was The Murderer.
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Re: Who is the "you" in "The majority of you&

Unread postby Garrelic » Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:39:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Garrelic', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Dvanharn', 'A')ny post you make here is by default, addressed to people who are visiting this forum. Most people here are concerned about peak oil, and many of us here are are trying to lessen our footprint on the earth, reduce our use of energy, and educate others about these issues.

Yet you address us as if you are an outsider coming to condemn us for being the cause of all of Earth's problems, implying that the people who are not concerned about peak oil and energy depletion are the innocents. I think your logic is a bit scrambled.

Perhaps specifying a target group, or at least a third party pronoun would better serve the objective of your post.

Dave


I was focusing on the depression and lament i am seeing in peoples posts, as if its the end of life, but clearly i make a strong case for change,

Pretty sure you missed the ball on that one, I am saying the society has bred a majority of people to serve no purpose and care not to address a problem.

I think its great your addressing the problem, I just dont think the problem is that bad of a catastrophe, we clearly are on an inavoidable road, peak oil just brings us to the destination quicker. The soft landing isn't likely to happen with this kind of motivation judging by the fact that governments don't regulate fuel efficiency on vehicles and nations have barely scratched the surface of preperation.
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Unread postby Garrelic » Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:40:32

Speed of transportation, sanitation, food that is readily available, electricity, modern medicine, SW radio, and an easy lifestyle compared to the rest of the world.

Oh yes and i would trade indefinate survival from nuclear and biological weapons, along with pollution, and the possibility of global war, which by murphy's law dooms us, for all those wonderful things i could do without...[/quote]
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