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Wood stove outside?

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Wood stove outside?

Unread postby NEOPO » Fri 18 Aug 2006, 19:30:50

Heard about this last year but today my comrade was near an actual installation and got a copy of the brochure which led us to this site:

The Wood Master

We have journeyed to their webpage, cannot find a spec sheet like most manufacturers provide and we see that the unit requires "constant" water circulation via a pump plus the addition of a "coil" I guess and a 1/4 hp or so blower and duct work or ?? gravity from a coil? or the floor installation .... yeah right or the radiant idea ok sure .......

Ok so I am thinking its a stove for people who dont wanna bring wood into their house ;-)

How can this be more efficient then actually burning the wood in the house?

Anyone have experience with this or a similar setup?

Thanks
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Re: Wood stove outside?

Unread postby aflatoxin » Fri 18 Aug 2006, 22:03:40

I've heard good things about these boilers. A friend who lives in the mountains has one of these things. It is right next to the woodshed, which is away from the house for fire safety. The wood goes from the truck into the shed. The ashes go into the ashpit. It is a tidy installation, and it saves a lot of time and work due to efficient material handling.

There is a buried insulated pipe between the stove and the house. There is a small pump that circulates the hot water through his radiant slab heat. (He used to use a propane boiler, (still has it for backup) It also is has a tank device to provide the domestic hot water.

Some of these things have an automatic stoker, so you can basically load it up with wood, and let it run for several days. If the possible loss of power is a concern, it would be pretty easy to rig this up with a DC pump, some solar panels, and a couple of deep cycle batteries. A well thought out installation would last for 30 or more years.

I, on the other hand, burn about 6 cords of wood a year using a wood stove inside the house. I have a woodshed, but I put about a weeks worth at a time on the back porch. The wood has to be brought inside the house. The ashes have to be cleaned out. Since we always have a fire going (only source of heat) these ashes are hot, so cleaning them out is very messy. Every step of this process leaves a mess, from the porch to the stove, to the ashes, and the smoke that gets into the house when we load it up with wook.

When I put an addition on this place , I'm going to build a wood-burning stove out of a piece of 36" pipe about 4 feet long. I'm going to build it so it goes through the wall with a door on each end. That way I can load/ clean it from either inside or outside the house. A four foot firebox will save a lot of time cutting wood. My current woodstove only takes 16" logs, and it is a lot of work cutting it this short.

I think the drawback of the fancy system is that it needs electricity and has moving parts. An old-school wood stove will last virtually forever without any replacement parts.
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Re: Wood stove outside?

Unread postby aflatoxin » Fri 18 Aug 2006, 22:58:08

There are some design features that can prevent smoking in something like this. I work around industrial furnaces, so I've learned a few things. A lot of these design elements are applicable to solid-fuel combustion only. Gas fuels are a lot different. I've built several wood-burning stoves over the years, and making one of these things work properly is actually a challenge.

These pointers should give you something to work with:

Sizing of the stove is important so the fire can be maintained at a relatively constant rate. If it's too big, then it has to start and shut down often, and that could cause poor performance and smoke. Far better to make it too small, and run the heck out of it. If it's not quite big enough for the coldest days, get a blanket.

Stacks must be tall enough and be insulated. Whats more, they need to be the correct diameter. This ensures that the gas travels at a sufficent velocity, and stays hot enough to prevent the creosote from condensing inside the stovepipe.

A cold surface can quench the fire, preventing it from staying hot enough to burn efficiently. Good designs use firebrick barriers and arches to reflect enough of the radiant heat of the fire back into the firebox to keep it burning correctly. The boiler tubes/plates do not directly "see" the fire, instead they rely on radiant energy reflected onto the heat exchanger. The boiler tubes also take the heat from the hot combustion gasses, but not so much as to cause condensation of the creosote.

Finally, the grate design is important. Good designs preheat the combustion air and impinge this heated air onto the fire with enough force to dislodge, to a small extent, the ash that accumulates on the wood. A shaker grate can periodically knock the ash into the ashbin.

The boiler at my friends place is about 20 years old, and it has pretty simple controls (thermostats). It sometimes smokes pretty bad, especially if it is really jammed full of wood.

I'm sure that a more modern design with computerized air dampers, stoker, and propane-assist ignition would be pretty clean. All new woodstoves sold in the US have to meet certain EPA emissions requirements, so they shouldn't smoke much.

If I was going to build a wood boiler, I would put the boiler tubes between the smoke shelf and the flue, about 8 inches above the physical location of the top of the wood. I would size the tubes so they had a surface area of about 30-40% of the total area of the smoke shelf to prevent quenching. I would use stainless steel pipe, probably 1" NPT. I would use a convection type heat transfer system between the water tubes and the steam drum, and a pump off the steam drum (water reservoir.) to the heating system. The boiler tube design must allow for expansion when heated so they don't get stressed and break I would pressure test it for about 2x or more the working pressure of the system, and make sure that the pressure relief valve was big enough.

If I was going to use this on a radiant system, there would have to be a provision to protect the tubing if the water temperature got too hot.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Wood stove outside?

Unread postby NEOPO » Mon 21 Aug 2006, 19:00:49

Thanks for the info folks.

So will it use less wood or more?

Is it sustainable?

The small model is priced at $4000 I believe and thats without shipping and installation!!


Bump ;-)
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Re: Wood stove outside?

Unread postby sysfce2 » Sun 03 Sep 2006, 21:11:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'O')k so I am thinking its a stove for people who dont wanna bring wood into their house :wink:

How can this be more efficient then actually burning the wood in the house?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pstarr', 'I') was told that it can cause a lot of smoke. Apparently the furnance shoots down and results in incomplete combustion? Anyone know anything about this?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'S')o will it use less wood or more?


Yes, the main advantage of an outdoor boiler is convenience and cleanliness. They usually have quite a large firebox, so you don't have to build a fire quite as often, but they are not exactly known for their wood combustion efficiency. :wink:
I'm not familliar with the particular company you've listed, but judging from their literature, it looks their equipment is likely quite typical in that regard.

If you're set on a outdoor furnace why not build a small outbuilding and put in something like an HS TARM or a Greenwood boiler. They will burn much more efficiently with almost no smoke. But if you don't mind carrying wood into the house, they both are quite modern (cool to the touch and use wood gasification technology) and would work more efficiently in the house as you would have less piping (heat loss) etc.

The downside though is the high initial cost (~$6000) for the HS Tarm. (I don't know what the greenwood is). HS Tarm are the brand to buy if you want imported from Europe as they have been around in the States the longest (since the '70s). Greenwoods have been around for a while too, and I believe they are built in the US. They also have a larger firebox too.
There is also a few other brands that I really don't know anything about (check out the comparison page on the Greenwood web site)
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on. -- Winston Churchill
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