[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'W')hat the hell does he have to back up his statements?

[backstop]

Monte -

re the Common Page that Dale has written, I'd put it a little diferently.

As I see it the complex system that generates the symptoms of impending collapse reflects an underlying ideological disfunction,
or, less technically, a cultural heresy, that can fairly be described as Anthro-supremacism.

This goes right back to the cock-up in Mesopotamia, quite some time ago.

That said, that page has been my understanding same as you.

regards,

Backstop

[crapattack]

One of the tools I learned in clinical psychology is that behaviours, even distructive ones, are often tied to "gains" for the subject and often have multiple and complex connections to other behaviours. Any behaviour can rightly be called a system, and that if you are looking for why a behaviour persists, first of all look to what the behaviour gains for the subject. Applied to addictive behaviour, in particular, no change can be made taking the client off the distructive object until the there is more perceived gain in switching than there is in staying. Meaning the client must gain something by shifting onto another object, and these gains almost always have to be immediate and tangible. This means you can't simply scare people off their behaviour, they have to "get something out of it" that is better than what they get staying on it.

[grabby]

The natural solution.

If no more children were born our population would be half in 20 years, so will our oil.

It will be 1/4 in in 40 years

to keep the lifestyle we have today,
this is what would help.

This is of course the proverbial lead balloon.

As the last generations move up in school the lower grades would permanently close down.
soon all schools will close. You know how much money that would save?


There would be more food, less on high chairs and the floor and the wall.


It could be done without a dieoff if the loonies don't go nuclear on us.
Which they will so just forget it,.

[grabby]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('crapattack', ' ') no change can be made taking the client off the distructive object until the there is more perceived gain in switching than there is in staying.

[Ludi]

Grabby, how would you selll your "solution"? Having children is seen as an absolute good in our culture. How would you change this very longstanding idea?

[Revi]

We are wired to try to perpetuate our clan. The idea of nobody having children is going to be a very hard sell. The birthrate will go down with a depression, however. I don't think people react instantly to a new reality, but in time they will. Let's see what happens when we can't afford to feed all those mouths. It's happening already even here in the US of A.

[RdSnt]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'W')e are wired to try to perpetuate our clan. The idea of nobody having children is going to be a very hard sell. The birthrate will go down with a depression, however. I don't think people react instantly to a new reality, but in time they will. Let's see what happens when we can't afford to feed all those mouths. It's happening already even here in the US of A.

[mmasters]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RdSnt', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'W')e are wired to try to perpetuate our clan. The idea of nobody having children is going to be a very hard sell. The birthrate will go down with a depression, however. I don't think people react instantly to a new reality, but in time they will. Let's see what happens when we can't afford to feed all those mouths. It's happening already even here in the US of A.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', '
')I suppose it's like we're dogs and cats in good neighborhoods, if we don't get neutered we breed like there's no tomorrow.

The solution: neuter the masses

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mmasters', '
')The solution: neuter the masses

[gg3]

Contraception: Hardly.

What we need is to reduce the population to something like ONE QUARTER of what it is today, IMMEDIATELY. Aside from assassinating a few popes in a row (that would make an interesting video game, eh?) and dropping plenty of atomic bombs on various festering swamps of humanity around the world (the game version of that one's already been done to, uh, death), I don't think we're going to make those numbers, do you?

Then comes the question of how to support X number of retiree-bees with one-fifth the number of worker-bees. The choices there come down to either a) literally kill off the retiree-bees or b) socialistically redistribute the wealth of the worker-bees.

You see, we're either going to end up with ecofascism, ecocommunism, or a raging dieoff that would make either of those look positively humane by comparison.

And it's going to happen in our lifetimes.

Hey don't forget to take your antidepressants today.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'W')hen this guy talks about complex systems, where does he get his ideas from? Certainly not from mathematical texts on chaos theory and complexity theory. What the hell does he have to back up his statements?

A basic introduction on complexity theory can be found here:

http://complexity.orcon.net.nz/intro.html

If you find something about complex systems necessarily collapsing, tell me.

[EnergyUnlimited]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '
')You see, we're either going to end up with ecofascism, ecocommunism, or a raging dieoff that would make either of those look positively humane by comparison.

[Ferretlover]

I am no great brain, so would somebody please enlighten me?
Why does everyone keep talking about the importance of economic growth? Are we talking about personal and corporate greed “More!! Give me more!!”?
Isn’t it possible that humans should instead have been striving for intellectual growth? Shouldn’t improving the quality of our species and our environment have been the goal of our existence once we got past the basic survival needs (shelter, food)?
This is coming out jumbled, but I hope someone can understand what I am attempting to say.

[Ferretlover]

Isn't Africa, with all its problems, a preview of the future?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', 'I') am no great brain, so would somebody please enlighten me?
Why does everyone keep talking about the importance of economic growth?

[Ludi]

Our way of life and society are based on growth, and we don't have another model of how to live in place right now. Not to say there aren't other models (the choices not limited to "ecofascism" and "ecocommunism") but those other models aren't in place, another way of life isn't waiting for us to step into it, but must be built from scratch. Unfortunately, so many people believe so very strongly in the current model, they can't even imagine another way to live, let alone feel capable of giving up what we have for something different, and so, I think, they will cling very hard to the old dying way of life. I wish this weren't the case, but I fear it is. It's hard to even get people to talk about other ways to live.

[Ibon]

Radical change arises from the ashes of dying paradigms.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ferretlover', 'I')sn't Africa, with all its problems, a preview of the future?