[BigTex]

This post is indirectly related to depletion economics, but I notice that virtually everything that consumers spend their money on have almost zero value after they are purchased. I'm thinking about toys, furniture, electronics, computers, appliances, books, etc. In other words, if you bought a new refrigerator for $1000 and decided to sell it a month later you probably be lucky to get $200-$300 for it if you could find a buyer. This is true of most consumer products with the exception of some types of tools and power equipment. Cars maintain value better, but still depreciate very quickly. Part of this phenomenon is planned obsolescence by manufacturers and part of it is that our values are just kind of screwed up in that we spend money that we worked hard for on things that are really worthless but advertising and marketing have blinded us to this fact (sorry ladies, but I think this is especially true of womens' clothing, shoes, high end cosmetics, etc.).

The point that is related to PO is that if we were using oil related resources to create products that maintained their value well we might not be in such a fix when PO hits because we would at least have exchanged our one-time allotment of oil for a bunch of products that were worth something. As it is, however, if we ran out of oil tomorrow and were therefore unable to continue the manufacture and distribution of products, I think everyone would suddenly notice that virtually everything they own is only designed to last 2-3 years.

When I thought back on all the consumer goods I have purchased in the last several years, I was a little disappointed to realize that none of it was worth much of anything today (if I had to sell it) other than maybe some tools and power equipment, the depreciated value of my vehicles, my Herman Miller Aeron chair, some jewelry, and that's about it.

One small consolation is that home burglary has got be a lot less lucrative than it used to be. If someone broke into my house I don't know what they would take. My 36 inch tube TV that weighs 150 pounds and is worth maybe $100? My 3 year old Dell computer? My large collection of kids' shows DVDs that my children watch (if the burglar had kids he'd probably take the DVDs)?

With the housing bubble on the coasts of the U.S., it may be that we will soon find that housing in these areas is just another consumer product with very little resale value compared to the purchase price.

I guess the point is that not only are we using up our oil at an irresponsible pace, we are also converting that oil into products that have very little real value. You combine this with the amount of oil related products that military operations require and this whole binge looks even more ridiculous.

[mekrob]

Very good point.

Furniture, books, food, computers, and clothes are others that retain their value or use, IMO.

Furniture is pretty natural. You need a bed to sleep on. Other things like bookshelves are nice, but not completely necessary like a bed would be. Large items like desks and entertainment centers are virtually worthless in hard times. Even in good times, there is little they can bring in.

Books, the right ones, always retain their value, especially if they are ones for engineering, math, and science. Literature is nice too, but not a necessity. I'd definately have around first aid books and others that you would find necessary (mechanics, cars, fuels, building (something), diseases, electricity, and maybe computers). You can always find a use for them (either selling or using them yourself).

Food...not too hard. I wouldn't put too much stock in meat, especially expensive ones. But grains, wheat, rice, fruit and veggies are great. Anything that will last a good bit of time is always worthwhile especially if they don't need refrigeration (noodles, rice, etc).

Clothes...same thing as food. You wear them. I'd stock up on some good quality clothing. Contrary to what many think, they do last a while. I've been wearing the same shoes for 4 years now and they still get the job done although they do show their age. And these are cheap ($40) Chinese shoes. Expensive clothes will definately not retain their value, but will be useful as long as they last a good while.

Computers are always good to have around. I wouldn't go out and get the latest edition $2k one, but you don't even need them. It's amazing that people buy junk like that. There's very little difference (other than software and use) between the $300 one and the $2k one. You can get a 2.5 gigahertz, 80 gig harddrive with a CD burner and 256 Meg ram with a printer for $300. The $2k one will be only marginally better with 'better' software which you would probably hardly use.

[mekrob]

Oh, I forgot to add guns. Supposedly (idk), they retain they're value in no matter the economic condition. Not to mention they are always useful. Would that be a 'tool'?

[Ludi]

We're all to blame unless our jobs have "value." Mine doesn't - I work in the entertainment industry.

So, what do you propose to do about people and their need to earn a living? Our way of life is based on "waste." What do you propose to do about it? Just curious.

[EnergyUnlimited]

You had presented some good points here, but there are remedies for your problems:

1. Consumer electronics.
Buy in shop=throw money away.
But what about 2 years old PC for $30? You will not notice much difference either!

2. Cars. I tend to buy 1-2 years old one, sell 2-3 years later, buy again etc.
You will always drive a reasonable car and not lose much money either.

3. Plastic toys, useless gadgets etc - DO NOT buy.

4. Food. Think about ratio of edible components to plastic packaging and make according choices.

5. Power tools.
Buy rather from trade suppliers, not for DIY consumer.
You will pay much more, but tool will keep its value (and integrity) well.

6. Women stuff.
Buy your wife the cheapest (from clearances, sales, pawn shops etc).
It is still waste of money and regardless how much you pay, she will only wear it few times at most.

In terms of waste of resources to prouce useless items, excessive food packaging is something, what I hate most.

[Fergus]

Speaking for me, I dont buy consumer goods to resell. When I buy a toy, I give no consideration to its resell value. When I buy a tool, I make sure its craftsman and guarenteed for life. I am not gunna sell it. On appliances, again you dont consider resale value. You are USING these, not buying for investments.

Thats why theres no refrigerator stock market, No peak hand saw.

These are items that you will buy and buy and buy as they wear out, get lost. Some will last forever of till you outgrow the phase for which it was bought.

But all these things are common every day items that we need. yes we need toys. We have kids, we do not send em to the fields at age 5 and make em work all their life. We give em a good 20 years to play and learn. You cant play without toys. So the fact their made of oil is just a conscequence of us using oil as a form of energy. If we used air or human hair or cow dung, these would be sucking up whatever your using as an energy source, cause they are needed by modern society (or deemed needed, regardless if they are actually really needed).

It either lose oil to these items or do totally without them. Lets see you refrigerate a weeks worth of groceries with no fridge. Or clear a 5 acre field with a mule and a wooden plow. You can do it, but your gunna spend the energy instead of using the energy. Work smarter, not harder ring a bell?

[americandream]

We buy, Chindia make....they make....we consume......we consume....they consume.

Do the math when Walmart hits Asia. The centre of the globe moves East. Is Peak Oil for real or just Western envy at the new rising powerhouse?

After all, how is the Anglo (aka White) alpha male going to cope with having to compete with Asians.

[BigTex]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')e're all to blame unless our jobs have "value." Mine doesn't - I work in the entertainment industry.

So, what do you propose to do about people and their need to earn a living? Our way of life is based on "waste." What do you propose to do about it? Just curious.

[rwwff]

We do have ebay. You don't need to buy anything new if you don't want to. I'm a bit opposite of another poster on this thread. I buy most of my consumer junk and stuff used; but I buy cars new and run them with full preventive maintenance till they die.

Computer stuff is great to buy used on ebay; though as the price of new laptops is really crashing hard, that may not be the case for much longer. I get a sense though that retailers are "lost leadering" those low end laptops. Sales people seem to get a little bit grumpy when I buy one and won't buy anything else, they've started pushing harder recently, and I've actually been a bit rude in return, which surprised me. They get really grumpy if you harden up an elderly couple before they go to buy one. I won't even describe all the dozens of buy-me trial software that is loaded onto them from the factory.

Real estate still holds value better than most useable items, but you do have to pay taxes on it.

[eric_b]

Great post, I agree.

While there still are things made that are meant to last they are getting harder and harder to find.

I also think a lot of recent construction here in the US is shoddy. Some of the new apartment complexes and vinyl siding clad mcmansions will be ghetto in as little as 20 years.

[Tanada]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', 'T')his post is indirectly related to depletion economics, but I notice that virtually everything that consumers spend their money on have almost zero value after they are purchased. I'm thinking about toys, furniture, electronics, computers, appliances, books, etc. In other words, if you bought a new refrigerator for $1000 and decided to sell it a month later you probably be lucky to get $200-$300 for it if you could find a buyer. This is true of most consumer products with the exception of some types of tools and power equipment. Cars maintain value better, but still depreciate very quickly. Part of this phenomenon is planned obsolescence by manufacturers and part of it is that our values are just kind of screwed up in that we spend money that we worked hard for on things that are really worthless but advertising and marketing have blinded us to this fact.

The point that is related to PO is that if we were using oil related resources to create products that maintained their value well we might not be in such a fix when PO hits because we would at least have exchanged our one-time allotment of oil for a bunch of products that were worth something. As it is, however, if we ran out of oil tomorrow and were therefore unable to continue the manufacture and distribution of products, I think everyone would suddenly notice that virtually everything they own is only designed to last 2-3 years.

I guess the point is that not only are we using up our oil at an irresponsible pace, we are also converting that oil into products that have very little real value. You combine this with the amount of oil related products that military operations require and this whole binge looks even more ridiculous.

[BigTex]

I agree with the comment that modern appliances do last a long time and are very efficient compared to older models. There is one serious problem with most modern appliances, however, and that is the circuit boards that they all seem to have in them that are sensitive to voltage fluctuations. In an environment of brownouts, blackouts, and other grid events that can cause power surges a lot of appliances will be rendered inoperable. A good practice is to put a surge protector on every appliance in your house--in most cases this means the clothes washer, the microwave oven, the refrigerator and the dishwasher. It's cheap insurance. Not foolproof, but it helps.

[rogerhb]

Add "tourism" to the "consumer goods with no value sucking up oil".

[MrBill]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f he spent it on wine, women and song I would say he has very little to show for his one-time windfall.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('BigTex', '
')It seems to me like we are spending our one-time allotment of oil on things that will look in retrospect like wine women and song.

[mekrob]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'B')igTex wrote:

It seems to me like we are spending our one-time allotment of oil on things that will look in retrospect like wine women and song.


I never thought about it that way before, I like your angle.

It's obvious that we should be spending our excess energy into building a sustainable society that is more comfortable than it would be if we never had had access to oil. But it doesn't look like we are doing anything like that, are we?

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', '"')Suburbia is the greatest misallocation of resources in the history of mankind"

[BigTex]

Unfortunately, enlightened self-interest requires some degree of enlightenment.

But you're right, it's a free country. For now.

[rogerhb]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('mekrob', '"')Suburbia is the greatest misallocation of resources in the history of mankind"

[BigTex]

Unfortunately, enlightened self-interest requires some degree of enlightenment.

But you're right, it's a free country. For now.