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Resistance is Futile

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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby Magus » Sun 30 Jul 2006, 21:38:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Magus', '
')The only problem with your argument is that good and evil actually exist.


Good and evil? They exist according to definition and perspective.

One man's light is another's darkness.

Indeed, one poster suggested that I was evil incarnate. Now isn't that absurd? 8)


Sorry, but moral relativeism is just a cop-out. One of the defining characteristics of evil, is that it doesn't like to be shown for what it truly is. Much better to pretend that it's actions are "justified."

I prefer the one's who openly admit they are evil incarnate to that crap.
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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby Jack » Sun 30 Jul 2006, 21:40:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Magus', '
')Sorry, but moral relativeism is just a cop-out. One of the defining characteristics of evil, is that it doesn't like to be shown for what it truly is. Much better to pretend that it's actions are "justified."

I prefer the one's who openly admit they are evil incarnate to that crap.


Umm? And upon what foundation should one base moral absolutism?
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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby Vexed » Sun 30 Jul 2006, 22:03:17

“I know only that what is moral is what you feel good after and what is immoral is what you feel bad after.” - Hemingway
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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby Magus » Sun 30 Jul 2006, 22:03:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Magus', '
')Sorry, but moral relativeism is just a cop-out. One of the defining characteristics of evil, is that it doesn't like to be shown for what it truly is. Much better to pretend that it's actions are "justified."

I prefer the one's who openly admit they are evil incarnate to that crap.


Umm? And upon what foundation should one base moral absolutism?


I don't want to turn this into a debate about philosophy...but I believe this to be much closer to my stance...

Moral Objectivism

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')oral objectivism and free will
Semi-religious arguments for moral objectivism have to do with the relationship between free will, choice, and morals. Some have argued that without free will, the universe is deterministic and therefore morally uninteresting (i.e., if all moral choices and moral behavior are determined by outside forces, there can be no need for any person to ponder morality), though this would depend on whether free choice is required for an action to be 'moral'. If free will exists, it stands to reason that the universe allows moral behavior. From this, some believe this feature is integral to the universe's reason for being. A softer, more theological, line of reasoning is that God may 'need' to permit us to have choices, but leaves the concerns of those choices (and their consequences) up to the people making them. In this case, moral objectivism is a subjective decision (i.e., free will must, by definition, include the freedom to choose what is moral).

These views are generally not accepted by those who deny free will. Some, in fact, deny free will and still accept moral objectivism — and argue that these two beliefs are inextricably tied.

[edit]
Criticism of moral objectivism
A primary criticism of moral objectivism regards how we come to know what the 'objective' morals actually are. In science one can perform objective empirical tests of claims, but there are no such objective tests for moral claims. At best one can point to a widely accepted authority. But if this authority has no objective way of obtaining moral truths itself, then our knowledge through that authority is still corrupted by subjectivity. In addition the authorities quoted as sources of objective morality are all subject to human interpretation, and multiple views abound on them. If morals are to be truly objective, they would have to have a universally unquestioned source, interpretation and authority. Therefore, so critics say, there is no conceivable source of such morals, and none can be called 'objective'. They claim that even if there are objective morals, there will never be universal agreement on just what those morals are, making them by definition unknowable.

Proponents of theories of objective morality, however, counter these criticisms from two angles.

First, they claim that these criticisms essentially amount to attacking metaphysics with epistemology; they hold that, even if it were impossible to know the substantial nature of objective morality, that would not mean that it is not metaphysically objective. A critic might, in turn, respond that this completely undermines the very value of an objective truth: a moral truth which it is impossible to identify can serve none of the purposes (namely, to inform behaviour and judgment) for which it is relied upon, so leaves the world in no better a position to resolve moral disputes than if moral relativism (or even moral nihilism) were the case.
Second, they argue that consensus and truth are not necessarily equivalent — a proposition does not need to be universally held to be true for it to be actually true, and that a proposition may indeed be universally held to be true does not mean that it is actually true.
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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby Magus » Sun 30 Jul 2006, 22:16:17

From smallpoxgirl...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n human terms, I'd have to say the most powerful thing is hope. Humans will do all manner of insane things because it gives them hope.

The most powerful thing overall I would call The Way. Some people call it God, others Karma. Whatever the invisible force is that causes universes to form and fade, suns to burn and then blink out. The force that crafted the rules that science seeks to discover. In comparison, we really are puny creatures. Masters of all we survey, but ultimately no more significant than a collection of fungi eating a toenail.


From me...

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') think smallpoxgirl sums up my view pretty well, but I would also like to submit one more idea:

Free will. The power one has over their own destiny. Will humanity learn from the mistakes it has made, and create a better world for our childeren?

Or...


And finally, from MonteQuest

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he truth.


That is my beliefs.
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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby Miki » Mon 31 Jul 2006, 05:53:21

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'A')nd finally, regarding assimilation. No, the Mexicans and others from south of the border do not seek to change the U.S.; rather, they seek to become like us. Oh, they may use salsa instead of ketchup, eat tacos in lieu of hot dogs, and other such trivia - but make no mistake, they pursue the same dreams of material wealth, and they walk the same path. Mere language changes nothing.


Your statements here show a poor understanding of LatinAmerican culture, something which is very common among arrogant ethnocentric Americans. I grew up in LatinAmerica and I can tell you a word or two about their culture. Mexicans are not like you, and they will never be. Mexican and American cultures are dramatically different, and they will always be. While LatinAmerican immigrants may learn to adapt to American society, that won't take away any bit of their culture.

As for the "Americanization of the world" as you proposed it, it is only a superficial influence triggered by the globalization process. A few new McDonalds and a bunch of young people trying to imitate the American yuppies in their clothing and attitudes are not going to change the cultures of the world. That would be beyond wishful thinking. Not to mention that other cultures, such as the Cuban, are increasingly "in fashion" around the world. Just take a look at all the Japanese who are boasting Che Guevara t-shirts and dancing salsa. Globalization is a double-edge blade.

And thanks God they won't. We need more education and family values, not less. The world doesn't need to increase its rates of drug addiction, street violence, teenage pregnancy, crime, ignorance, social conformity, consumerism and arrogance---all of which are way too high among your cultured American society. We don't need that. No, thank you.
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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby Ayame » Mon 31 Jul 2006, 07:35:28

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '
')And thanks God they won't. We need more education and family values, not less. The world doesn't need to increase its rates of drug addiction, street violence, teenage pregnancy, crime, ignorance, social conformity, consumerism and arrogance---all of which are way too high among your cultured American society. We don't need that. No, thank you.



Crime, street violence, drug addiction, teenage preganacy, ignoance, arrogance etc. are all way too high among many cultures.

In fact I would like to advance a theory: that human being evolved to be self-centered conceited assholes. Yes that's right I reckon mother nature likes her children to be assholes and that anyone in the past who had tendancy to be humble got outbred by arrogant ignorant assholes who thought that they were entitled to everything including all the women etc. So it was in fact survival of the most arrogant.

This selection would have been going on even before our ancestors became homo. Researchers recently taught a chimp to sign and guess what it signed: me me, give me hug, give me food, more more, want more food etc. Talk about a self-centered, conceited animal.
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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby Doly » Mon 31 Jul 2006, 07:51:01

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ayame', '
')In fact I would like to advance a theory: that human being evolved to be self-centered conceited assholes. Yes that's right I reckon mother nature likes her children to be assholes and that anyone in the past who had tendancy to be humble got outbred by arrogant ignorant assholes who thought that they were entitled to everything including all the women etc. So it was in fact survival of the most arrogant.


Only that the humble have done very well in the past lying low and waiting for the arrogant to reach their inevitable downfall. Otherwise, there wouldn't be many humble people left. Just because you don't notice them, it doesn't mean that they aren't all over the place. Call them "introverted" instead of "humble" if you like.
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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby Jack » Mon 31 Jul 2006, 08:24:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', 'A')nd finally, regarding assimilation. No, the Mexicans and others from south of the border do not seek to change the U.S.; rather, they seek to become like us. Oh, they may use salsa instead of ketchup, eat tacos in lieu of hot dogs, and other such trivia - but make no mistake, they pursue the same dreams of material wealth, and they walk the same path. Mere language changes nothing.



$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '
')Your statements here show a poor understanding of LatinAmerican culture, something which is very common among arrogant ethnocentric Americans. I grew up in LatinAmerica and I can tell you a word or two about their culture. Mexicans are not like you, and they will never be. Mexican and American cultures are dramatically different, and they will always be. While LatinAmerican immigrants may learn to adapt to American society, that won't take away any bit of their culture.


Oh, I think I know quite a few Mexicans. Probably more than you do. Their cultural differences are wearing away, slowly but surely.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '
')As for the "Americanization of the world" as you proposed it, it is only a superficial influence triggered by the globalization process. A few new McDonalds and a bunch of young people trying to imitate the American yuppies in their clothing and attitudes are not going to change the cultures of the world. That would be beyond wishful thinking. Not to mention that other cultures, such as the Cuban, are increasingly "in fashion" around the world. Just take a look at all the Japanese who are boasting Che Guevara t-shirts and dancing salsa. Globalization is a double-edge blade.


So you think that being American is....what? Speaking English? Being Protestant? Dressing in a white button-down shirt?

No. Look deeper. The Japanese you allude to may think they're celebrating Cuba; in fact, they could not be embracing American culture more closely.

Ask yourself why globalization exists; ask whom is the chief proponent of it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Miki', '
')And thanks God they won't. We need more education and family values, not less. The world doesn't need to increase its rates of drug addiction, street violence, teenage pregnancy, crime, ignorance, social conformity, consumerism and arrogance---all of which are way too high among your cultured American society. We don't need that. No, thank you.

American education was originally modeled on European methods. Later, the Europeans and the rest of the world - including China - embraced some American methods. And now, the U.S. looks to the international scene in reforming domestic educational policy. Your thanks to the Gods may be premature.

As for the rest of the attributes you mention, those surround the world. So perhaps that represents an unconscious admission that American culture has already spread throughout the world? :twisted:

Saddam had his American movies; Saudi youth, when they can, go out drinking and dancing. And Lebanon? The "Paris of the Middle East"? With its tourist industry, bars, dancing, and stores? Make no mistake, Lebanon has sold herself on the world market, seeking cold hard cash. And what will happen as Lebanon seeks aid? Syria and Iran will send guns; but which companies will send the cash to rebuild the place? American companies, perhaps? Whence Lebanese culture - the history books, perhaps?

Will you try to convince me that Lebanon has no crime, no teenage pregnancy, no drug addiction? Do you suggest that one cannot get their cocaine or heroin in Beirut? Will you tell me that there is no drunkness? That there is no social conformity? No arrogance perhaps? Or will you suggest that eating some kashi will maintain cultural uniqueness? Your Lebanon has already been shaped by American attitudes. You swim in an American sea, and claim you are not wet.

We are more embedded in the global consciousness than Rome ever was - and that Empire casts shadows still. 100 generations - 2,000 years - hence, dim echoes of American culture will persist.

Think of it as our gift to the world. 8)
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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby Zardoz » Mon 31 Jul 2006, 10:20:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '.')..Look also at China, at India - or at Russia, or Japan, or hundreds of other states - and you will see that they wish to become just like the U.S...


Resistance really is futile, as long as the oil holds out
"Thank you for attending the oil age. We're going to scrape what we can out of these tar pits in Alberta and then shut down the machines and turn out the lights. Goodnight." - seldom_seen
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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby Aaron » Mon 31 Jul 2006, 21:33:43

Come on Europeans!

You gonna let me talk about you like that?

Get your butts in here & defend your culture...

In english please.

:)
The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.

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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby lateralus » Mon 31 Jul 2006, 22:52:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Jack', '
')Umm? And upon what foundation should one base moral absolutism?



*Looking around the classroom*I know, I know. [smilie=profe.gif]

Umm? The size of one's manhood?
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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby evilgenius » Thu 03 Aug 2006, 05:54:52

So, does the world find itself in this position because the US has a lock on capitalism or just a lock on a particularly exploitive version of capitalism? An exploitive version that finds itself dominant because of historical and resource related reasons. An exploitive version that seems insurmountable, but which might actually have an Achilles heel. That Achilles heel isn't other cultures fighting back, by the way. That Achilles heel is the development of full fledged capitalism (an indigenous capitalism) in the economic regions that compose those cultures.

If you can look past the dumb ass accusations of, 'socialism, socialism' concerning Europe and what is going on in China you will see that there is some merit to what I am saying. The most dangerous areas for the US in the 21st century are precisely those areas where, if captalism were to be adopted intrinsically instead of extrinsically, there is the most potential for explosive economic growth. Against those places the exploitive conservative fear mongers are already laying the groundwork, disguised in 20th century language, for future wars.
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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby Doly » Thu 03 Aug 2006, 06:11:09

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('evilgenius', '
')The most dangerous areas for the US in the 21st century are precisely those areas where, if captalism were to be adopted intrinsically instead of extrinsically, there is the most potential for explosive economic growth.


I really have no idea what you are saying here. Can you explain slowly?
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Re: Resistance is Futile

Unread postby evilgenius » Thu 03 Aug 2006, 06:16:24

Think of it this way, does a state, or region for that matter, stand on its own economically or is it a client state that exists only to funnel a good or service to its master?
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