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What we MAY know about PO if we are really arsy!!!

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Re: What we MAY know about PO if we are really arsy!!!

Unread postby rwwff » Wed 26 Jul 2006, 22:18:11

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hy plow? It isn't necessary.

Read Masanobu Fukuoka's books about no-plow grain farming. Should save you a hell of a lot of work from the looks of it!


I have considered it... But in a case where you need the cash crop to pay the taxes at the end of the year, I have no historical confidence in the method. In the coming years I will make the attempt to learn more about it.

That said, I estimate to keep the farm, I should plan on needing to generate at least 1000 bushels of corn specifically for sale, for dollars, to immediately hand to the county tax accessor collector. So you get into the problem of certainty. Agony + mule + plow + corn seed + 15 tilled acres in East Texas gets safely passed that requirement.. WIth nitrogen fertilizer as the only external input, I can get quite a ways passed that, but it has to be cost effective, and I'd be nervous building any long range plan based upon its availability.

This is of course very simplified in the details, and external economic variables will play a large part in shaping how it works as to what to plant, what inputs are cost effective, and (most diifficult), how to market a quantity that is both large and small, like 1000 bushels over two harvests.

I absolutely want to avoid any consideration of "boutique" agriculture. That stuff only works when there's only a few people doing it; try doing that with 9,000 square miles worth of farmers, and its all boo and no teak.
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Re: What we MAY know about PO if we are really arsy!!!

Unread postby JPL » Wed 26 Jul 2006, 22:20:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', 'M')e and a mule could probably get up to fifteen acres under tilled cultivation without preferring suicide.


Not trying to criticise but 15 acres & 1 mule??? I don't know where you live but in European soils you need at least two strong Shire-horses to even get the plough to bite in Then you have about a 12-hour day ahead of you to plough ONE acre.


Wow, I think I'd prefer suicide than try that in Europe. I'm sure there are soils like that in parts of the US, but I can only tell you what I know from the dirt I know. Its much softer than you are describing.


In my particular area we have heavy clay & although it is moisture-retentive & fertile it is HARD WORK.

Currently I am using a 1960 MF T35 (35 horse power) tractor & a contempory two-blade plough & the thing bucks, rears and grunts to get through the soil. It does it eventually though, and that's the main thing.

You must have a light, sandy soil - that is traditionally the easiest to work. Back in the 'good old' days an acre was defined as the area that a ploughman & his horses could plough in a day.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')
Yes, I've never suggested it was anything other than extremely hard work. I don't drink cider though, Apples are not well suited to our region; though there are admittedly a few varieties that will produce with tolerable reliability.



Actually, I love cider. One of the pay-backs for living in a heavy-clay, mild-climate region, I guess :o)
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Re: What we MAY know about PO if we are really arsy!!!

Unread postby rwwff » Wed 26 Jul 2006, 22:49:16

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', 'I')n my particular area we have heavy clay & although it is moisture-retentive & fertile it is HARD WORK.

Currently I am using a 1960 MF T35 (35 horse power) tractor & a contempory two-blade plough & the thing bucks, rears and grunts to get through the soil. It does it eventually though, and that's the main thing.


You're further along than me. That said, what we have traditionally done in our area is hire in the tractor work. Pay Bob $x to slash across your field on some day at his convenience in February... But the simple fact is, that as long as Bob can run his tractor, I can make more $$ for the taxman doing other things, and stick to the 1-2 acre permaculture design for family and friends and leave the big(?) fields for rotated grazing of horses.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'Y')ou must have a light, sandy soil - that is traditionally the easiest to work. Back in the 'good old' days an acre was defined as the area that a ploughman & his horses could plough in a day.


We call it red dirt, it has some iron in it that gives it that color. Even in "drought" conditions we get well over 30" of rain a year, and its usually reasonably well distributed, more typical is 45"-50" with some years in the 60"+ range. But, like you surmise, it is more sandy than anything else; it has been lightly grazed with external inputs of hay for over two decades, and so is in pretty good shape, should things ever get so tight that me and Mr. Mule will be turning the dirt.
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Re: What we MAY know about PO if we are really arsy!!!

Unread postby JPL » Wed 26 Jul 2006, 22:52:50

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', 'W')hy plow? It isn't necessary.

Read Masanobu Fukuoka's books about no-plow grain farming. Should save you a hell of a lot of work from the looks of it!


Hi Ludi

No dis-respect but I have been growing Organic for 20 years and my main tools are still the hoe, the rake and the plough.

Particularly, maybe because our soil is heavy clay - fertile, but heavy. Without plough & harrow I can't begin to imagine how I would work it...

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Re: What we MAY know about PO if we are really arsy!!!

Unread postby JPL » Wed 26 Jul 2006, 23:10:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '
')
You're further along than me.


Non, I am a complete b-hole when it comes to farming. A couple of years ago my wife & I bought a 'hobby farm' mainly as a way of being a bit more 'green' and virtuous.

Then we had the PO 'discovery' and then figured out, this wasn't a lifestyle choice, it was for real. Been panicking ever since....

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Re: What we MAY know about PO if we are really arsy!!!

Unread postby 128shot » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 01:39:31

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '
')But you aren't actually doing that, you're leaping to totally false conclusions rather than actually trying to understand how many people here really feel about these issues.



I'm doing it the best way I know how, and thats to poke around and throw these things out untill somebody gives me a counter point.


I am judging a book by its cover on purpose, because I am unable to read the book, however others have the ability to read the book to me, and thats all I'm going for.


The user who said I'm fresh face to this is entirely correct. I wasn't even alive during the first ecological movements of the 60s and 70s.

So I'm not even well acquainted with the culture surrounding many peak oil hubs.
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Re: What we MAY know about PO if we are really arsy!!!

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 04:14:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', 'I') am judging a book by its cover on purpose, because I am unable to read the book, however others have the ability to read the book to me, and thats all I'm going for.


That's a rather poor plan, have you not heard of libraries? Perhaps you are too young.....
"Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
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Re: What we MAY know about PO if we are really arsy!!!

Unread postby Doly » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 04:18:54

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', '
')The user who said I'm fresh face to this is entirely correct. I wasn't even alive during the first ecological movements of the 60s and 70s.

So I'm not even well acquainted with the culture surrounding many peak oil hubs.


Hey, you don't need to be that old to grasp peak oil. I wasn't alive during the 60s either. (Well, I was during the 70s, but I was too young to appreciate much, as you can imagine.)
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Re: What we MAY know about PO if we are really arsy!!!

Unread postby JPL » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 18:14:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', '
')
The user who said I'm fresh face to this is entirely correct. I wasn't even alive during the first ecological movements of the 60s and 70s.



That's not a problem. Most that were, were feigning sleep so you come out with a pretty high score right now ;o)

BTW I was a 1980's Green. Still burbling in my cot in the 60's.

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Re: What we MAY know about PO if we are really arsy!!!

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 18:59:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', 'N')o dis-respect but I have been growing Organic for 20 years and my main tools are still the hoe, the rake and the plough.

Particularly, maybe because our soil is heavy clay - fertile, but heavy. Without plough & harrow I can't begin to imagine how I would work it...

JPL


But see, that's what you might consider, that there is no need to "work it." You just leave it, mulch it...

Anyway, just throwing these ideas out trying hard to save people work. It gets frustrating, and sad, though, because people are so set in their 20 year old ways...
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Re: What we MAY know about PO if we are really arsy!!!

Unread postby 128shot » Fri 28 Jul 2006, 01:21:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '
')
That's a rather poor plan, have you not heard of libraries? Perhaps you are too young.....



Erm, it was suppose to be along the lines of figuratively speaking...


I'm just trying to press into the culture surrounding peak oil so I can understand the people involved, is all.
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Re: What we MAY know about PO if we are really arsy!!!

Unread postby JPL » Sat 29 Jul 2006, 19:38:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ludi', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JPL', 'N')o dis-respect but I have been growing Organic for 20 years and my main tools are still the hoe, the rake and the plough.

Particularly, maybe because our soil is heavy clay - fertile, but heavy. Without plough & harrow I can't begin to imagine how I would work it...

JPL


But see, that's what you might consider, that there is no need to "work it." You just leave it, mulch it...

Anyway, just throwing these ideas out trying hard to save people work. It gets frustrating, and sad, though, because people are so set in their 20 year old ways...


Hi Ludi

I've been thinking about this one for a couple of days. Mainly because I have been working on getting the Leek bed ready (follow-on from the early peas) and in the current heat-wave it is very unpleasant work & has taken me a 'long' time.

Particularly because I can't get the tractor in right now because all the surrounding beds are full of productive stuff.

I have always been of the opinion that the more organic material you can get into the soil, the easier it becomes to work. Particularly if you can get hold of the magic 'seaweed' - it is a miracle ingrediant in terms of work-ability.

So, current thoughts, if I work hard this Autumn I can probably cut enough mulch to cover some of the productive areas 'fairly' deep. Mixed with our precious stock of manure it would provide enough nourishment to play with courgettes & stuff next year and maybe I could experiment a bit from there....

If the soil turns to back to it's expected 'Cast Iron' consistancy next spring then I will have lost nothing except a bit of time & I will have more organic content so no harm in that. I have yet to experiment with green manures so maybe that is something to try the following year too.

In short Ludi, I have thought, and I will give 'no-dig' a go. I can't afford to lose a years veg so I will have to restrict the experiment to an area, but it will get a trial. Digging in the heat does certainly concentrate the mind...

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