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Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby NTBKtrader » Wed 26 Jul 2006, 15:21:50

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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby NEOPO » Wed 26 Jul 2006, 15:57:57

I think the landing gear is stuck but dont worry I saw this on TV....everything is going to be f......
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby seahorse2 » Wed 26 Jul 2006, 16:51:28

It depends on how close one is to the actual impact of the grenade. Those in the impact area will be decimated, those too close will be injured, others will be shellshocked, and then some will come in and clean up the pieces.

The grenade hasn't gone off yet though. Only the pin has been pulled. We have a few more seconds to get out of the impact zone.
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby FoxV » Wed 26 Jul 2006, 17:04:21

Well the good news for use bubble watchers is that the "soft landing" label has officially been abandoned.

also if you check the latest news on the the housing bubble blog you'll see that price declines have finally started to show up.

The declines are not much, under 2% for the most part, but its the beginning of the undeniable truth of this housing stupidity. Things should start accelerating now.

should be fun to watch
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby 12volts » Wed 26 Jul 2006, 18:15:33

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NEOPO', 'I') think the landing gear is stuck but dont worry I saw this on TV....everything is going to be f......


But just in case you might want to assume the crash position!

In other words bend over put you head between your legs and kiss your aaa........ never mind it might be too soon for that :razz:
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby DesertBear2 » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 01:59:43

I have been through a large-scale housing collapse ie the Denver housing bust of the late 80s.

In Denver, the weakness started around 1985 with just a few foreclosure signs here and there. It was really just a curiosity.

By 1987, the collapse was in full swing with foreclosures in full avalanche mode. Whole townhouse developments went through foreclosure. Condos were going for $11,000. You could buy a decent 3br house for $40,000.

Foreclosures by the tens of thousands were listed in a special section of the Denver Post. Anybody could look over a listed house, call up the foreclosing agency, and make a quick deal on the phone. RE auctions were like Amway conventions with thousands bidding.

I would expect the current RE slowdown to morph into a general avalanche as we head into late 2006. The only thing that would slow this down is a recession which would keep the adjustable loans from resetting at high rates. And unlike 80s Denver, this RE bubble is nation and even worldwide. In Denver, the rest of the US economy was healthy and money poured into the local area- but this won't happen with a nation-wide RE collapse.
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby evilgenius » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 03:45:40

I think the biggest question going forward is how much asset depreciation will the boomers, who don't believe they have time to 'wait' for asset prices to come back, stand before they decide to bail on both housing and the markets and run for the bond? What sectors or individual investments will be safe in the face of such a change? The bond markets are already behaving somewhat strangely. Granted that behavior is very likely the result of oil investors doing the best they can in a steadily rising rate environment. What happens when we add a rush to invest in the bond market that isn't oil price related but asset salvation related? That demand could moderate rates, just enough to vex Bernanke and see him unable to cut when cutting should be done.
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby Doly » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 03:50:25

I wouldn't be as worried about what will happen to bonds if people start selling property and stocks for bonds, but what will happen to the housing and stock market.

I mean, if both start falling, what is going to keep the economy going?
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby evilgenius » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 03:56:58

Ah, but I am worried about the stock and housing markets. My point is that the money needed to keep those markets at historical valuations will be in the bond and pretty much trapped there because of market forces.
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby perdition79 » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 04:00:38

I just pity all the people in my area who think that a 900 sq. ft. 2/1 concrete block s**thole built in the late '50's is actually worth the $170,000 they paid for it. They were all worth $55k and under less than a decade ago, and with any luck I'll be buying one for that price really soon.

Most of my family believes we're in for rough times, but my realtor aunt is still in denial. She thinks that property values will hold, doesn't see a connection between debt, energy costs, the job market, and the housing market, and hates the phrase "housing bubble."

Soft landing my butt. This is a modern-day Valujet crash into the Everglades at its finest, and it should be fun to watch.
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby MrBill » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 10:18:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('perdition79', 'S')oft landing my butt. This is a modern-day Valujet crash into the Everglades at its finest, and it should be fun to watch.


Careful with that softlanding and your butt. With the right trajectory and enough momentum it might go a lot farther and deeper than you expect? ; - )

Correct me if I am wrong, but its the employment figures that will make the difference to this housing bubble collapse or stagnation, as interest rates are not likely to go much higher in the face of a deflating housing bubble that slows the economy.

And with the average 30-year fixed mortgage at 6.68% it is higher than 5.58% last year, but on a $230.000 average house that is still only an additional $2530 in interest per year even if the house is fully mortgaged?

High energy prices and higher interest rates are going to cut discretionary spending, but we are not seeing the double digit inflation and interest rates on the end of the 1970/80's, so collapse might be a matter of individual or local importance, but not widespread?

I am not optimistic, but I do not like to pull the fire alarm until I see flames and not just smoke?
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby gnm » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 10:35:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse2', 'I')t depends on how close one is to the actual impact of the grenade. Those in the impact area will be decimated, those too close will be injured, others will be shellshocked, and then some will come in and clean up the pieces.

The grenade hasn't gone off yet though. Only the pin has been pulled. We have a few more seconds to get out of the impact zone.


Hehe, Makes me think about the time I asked my Grandmother who is now almost 90 to tell me about how the great depression affected her. She said basically "what depression? We never noticed it here." - at the time she was living on a small farm outside a small town in New Mexico.

-G
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 15:37:41

http://business.bostonherald.com/reales ... eid=149987

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Risk of ripple effect - Housing a possible drag on Mass. economy
By Jay Fitzgerald
Boston Herald General Economics Reporter

Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - Updated: 09:02 AM EST

Massachusetts’ late-blooming economic recovery is at risk of being whacked by the dramatic slump in the state’s housing market, economists warned yesterday.

Last week, economists were somewhat optimistic about news that area companies had generated 4,400 new jobs in June and that state tax revenue continued to stream in at an impressive rate.

But a jump in home foreclosures and yesterday’s report of yet another fall in home sales and prices is causing economists to wonder whether the fragile economic recovery might be clipped by the housing market.

“This is not a good situation,” said Fred Breimyer, an economist and member of the New England Economic Partnership, referring to the housing market and its potential ripple effect on the rest of the economy.

...

“It’s going to be primarily a housing-led slowdown,” said Zandi, projecting economic growth next year of about 1.7 percent.


The real estate market in my part of the state is cooling off in a big way.

My parents were lucky and able to sell a condo in Boston at the top of the market last year (and thus securing my college education).

That 1 bedroom condo is worth about $40,000 less today than it was worth when the new guy bought it.

The guy who bought it is probably underwater right now with a large mortgage and falling property values.

This story is not uncommon. In my town, we have more homes for sale than buyers. My neighbors have been trying desperately to sell their house but no one is interested. They've been on the market since March and still no takers. Now they have a big "Price Reduced!" sign on top of the "For Sale" sign.

My father has a friend who works as a real estate attorney. He says that he hasn't seen a slowdown like this since the early 90s when the Savings and Loans Crisis caused a dramatic drop in house prices.

Here's another article that illustrates the point.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/hou ... usat_x.htm

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hen Paul and Sandra Wilson moved from California, where they couldn't afford to buy a home, to Georgia in May 2004, they bought a house with an interest-only loan. But Paul, 52, has had a tough time finding work, and they lost most of their savings in a business venture. They refinanced to an ARM with a lower rate but one that reset every six months and that charges a $20,000 penalty if they refinance within three years.

The loan broker "convinced us that it was in our best interest, and in most likelihood within six months our financial situation would turn around and we were going to look at selling," says Sandra, 53, a former law enforcement officer who is disabled.

In less than a year, their loan payment jumped from $2,275 to more than $2,800. The couple filed for bankruptcy and will lose their home next month. "This was our fourth home," Sandra says. "It's not as if we weren't aware, but we'd never had an adjustable-rate mortgage before."


It's not looking good...

If the Federal Reserves raises interest rates in August or September, it could trigger a crisis in real estate (if we aren't almost there already).

Lastly, has anyone been watching the yield curve?

The Fed rate is 5.25% but the 30-year bond is trading around 5.05%. Given another rate hike or two, the spread between short term and long term rates will grow to uncomfortable levels.
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby jaws » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 17:04:56

It was going to be a soft landing, but then some people found SNAKES ON THE PLANE.
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 17:21:14

Oh I do like metaphors.

A soft landing with no undercarriage on thin ice.
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby Daculling » Thu 27 Jul 2006, 19:39:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gnm', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('seahorse2', '
')Hehe, Makes me think about the time I asked my Grandmother who is now almost 90 to tell me about how the great depression affected her. She said basically "what depression? We never noticed it here." - at the time she was living on a small farm outside a small town in New Mexico.

-G


Same here... farmers in Iowa. Poor already, what the hell did they care that some dude in NY committed suicide. They were eating, that was all that mattered before and that was all that matter then.
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Re: Is this still a 'soft landing?'

Unread postby MountainHiker » Sun 30 Jul 2006, 21:22:40

I think the folks who moved through the past depression without noticing it bring up a good point. Your attitude, where you live, and how you live can make a huge difference in getting through tough times.

I personally love going backpacking and getting by for several days in the middle of nowhere with only my wits and those things in my pack. I know a lot of other people who consider using an outhouse as a horrible experience. Admittedly, a backpacking trip is different than years of depression. However, those folks who can more easily distinguish the difference between their wants and needs, or who have fewer needs and wants from the start should weather things much easier.

Personally, I'm not too worried about my family and me. What worries me more is what other people will do if their wants or perceived needs aren't met. I don't want to be around too many of them!
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Isn't it strange that the same people who laugh at gypsy fortune tellers take economists seriously?
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