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THE Road & Highway Thread (merged)

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Tue 27 Jun 2006, 11:43:17

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('cube', 'M')y gut feeling tells me this project will be built.

yeah I know a lot of people here don't like the idea but lets be honest with ourselves and admit that globalization is one of the most powerful forces today. Unless something else with more power comes by I see the trend continuing.

I guess this is the part where everybody says PO will be that "more powerful force" that will knock the wind out of globalization. Maybe so. But who knows when that's going to happen? Probably sometime after this project gets completed. I still see this project as being "viable" even if oil hits $200 a barrel. 8)


The eminent domain proceedings alone will last years. And I'd wager that one or two cases makes it all the way to the Supreme Court, who'd more likely than not vote against public/private consortiums like this one yanking people from their homes.
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby Kylon » Thu 29 Jun 2006, 10:05:40

1. Pork Barrel Project.

2. Makes a great military tool to control the resources of Canada and Mexico.

3. Provides jobs to people who would otherwise be out of work, in the economy that's going to be shrinking rapidly.

If you can provide jobs to your states, then you can get votes, and votes get you re-elected, and they keep you in power.

If the Republicans make sure everyone is employed, even if it bankrupts America, then the people will re-elect them.
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The Interstate Highway System at 50...

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Fri 30 Jun 2006, 00:44:08

Today, Thursday 29 June 2006 marks the 50th anniversary of the Eisenhower Interstate Highway System. The largest public works project ever undertaken, the system comprises over 42,000 miles of grade-separated, divided highways, found throughout 49 states and the District of Columbia. Three-quarters of the system is funded by a fuel tax, the final 27% being paid for through general appropriations (2004). Currently, externalities are unaccounted for through the current funding mechanism, or are reflected through other areas in the economy, distorting the free market for transportation considerably. Such a system has shifted the market for transportation towards personal mobility and truck-based freight; the combination of this and federally-backed housing programs that have put over 70% of Americans in their own home, have contributed to massive amounts of auto-based sprawl, population dispersal and the decline of competing, private forms of transportation.

The last 50 years of the Interstate system have brought tumultuous change to the country, redirecting and focusing its economic growth and resource usage around one of the most inefficient conduits ever conceived. Overworked and overstressed, the free good that is the Interstate system is literally collapsing under the weight of trucks that are 2 times the design limits of the system and the overuse of interstates as commuter corridors, with stretches carrying multiples of their intended design capacities. The solution for many is to add lanes, which could only be equated with bringing more "free pizza" (Duany) to a neverending crude oil party - it will be eaten up, and faster than anyone thought possible.

The successes of the Interstate are numerous, well-heralded in articles released by many dailies and magazines marking its 50th birthday. Just as important, but less self-aggrandizing are the stories you won't hear, the plowing of urban freeways into historically successful, minority neighborhoods like Overtown, near Miami, decimating local economies and forcing residents out of their homes through liberal use of eminent domain. You also won't hear of the economic growth that will never be on the old, decommissioned stretches of U.S. highways that parallel Interstates in many states, roads lined with the abandoned accoutrements of yesteryear, roadside motels and diners, service stations and the occasional quirky tourist attraction. You won't hear of the promises made and broken by central planners in a government office somewhere, making one town an economic powerhouse and breaking its neighbor, all through the selective routing of Interstate highways. No, the things you won't see that might have happened otherwise - Econ 101.

Personally, I have a love-hate relationship with the Interstate system. I grew up a huge fan of it, and would draw gantry (guide) signs for fun (still do). I know huge amounts of inane trivia about the interstate system, and absolutely bore my wife to death with my useless erudition on the subject. I appreciate the uniformity that it brought to highway travel, but not accompanying uniformity brought to the rural and urban landscape. The interstate, as Eisenhower envisioned, was never to enter cities, but rather loop around them. This vision was not shared by big-city mayors that would rather have seen their share of fuel taxes spent on inner-city freeways, ostensibly bringing high-speed travel straight into downtown cores. The mayors won out, and the freeways that were built in urban areas were no less than atrocious concrete viaducts that permanently compartmentalized neighborhoods and allowed for quick hemorrhaging of residents and tax base out into the far-flung suburbs. Ike's vision of exits far and few between became greatly compromised too, as every landowner affected by the system's construction fought for an exit ramp and usually received one. Tolling the facilities wasn't deemed acceptable to the masses either, as if asking people if they would like to pay for something or get it for "free" would merit a surprising answer.

And there you have it, 50 years later. A ramp for everyone and the golden-arches within sight of most every exit. It's distinctly American, there's no doubt. Half of me is enamored with the spectacle of it all; the other half appalled of what "might have been" and what's lost forever.

Well, this rant is going nowhere. Your thoughts?
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby pea-jay » Sat 08 Jul 2006, 04:10:53

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Kylon', '1'). Pork Barrel Project.

2. Makes a great military tool to control the resources of Canada and Mexico.

3. Provides jobs to people who would otherwise be out of work, in the economy that's going to be shrinking rapidly.

If you can provide jobs to your states, then you can get votes, and votes get you re-elected, and they keep you in power.

If the Republicans make sure everyone is employed, even if it bankrupts America, then the people will re-elect them.


If its proposed by a Republican Admin for the explicit benefit for Repub states (a few exceptions noted) then it makes sense. That alone will not guarentee its sucess. And no matter how dogged the support may seem from certain sectors, it wont happen if the resources (financial, energetic or otherwise) are not available. Nor will it happen if its obvious to all involved that it is irrelevant. I don't care how determined the braintrust behind this is NOW, the future is a different story. We stopped building canals when trains came about.

The most I could imagine happening is one or two optimistic jurisdictions manage to construct small portions of the highway only to leave them abandoned as monuments to our collective stupidity.

Or they'll make for some kick-ass bike paths
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Re: The Interstate Highway System at 50...

Unread postby pea-jay » Sat 08 Jul 2006, 04:36:54

My personal opinion on the interstate system is that it is one of the two most important postwar projects that brought the world to the point where it is now going to experience peak oil in the very very near future. Had we not built that system and engaged in the equally important Federally backed home mortgage program, Peak Oil may well have happened by 2039, if not later. Of course dense city living with sparse suburbanization and poor interstate road connection makes for a less mobile country, which would more than likely move by rail and public transit when it needed move about.
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby canis_lupus » Sat 08 Jul 2006, 16:17:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('pea-jay', 'I')n another way, this plan resembles a grander and less thought out version of Schwartzeneggers boneheaded plan to build more CA freeways, in the name of meeting anticipated car growth. The governator has seen his plan whittled down somewhat, with fewer highways and more transit/rail.

This plan makes no sense on a number of fronts. Not only is there a well discussed energy aspect, but then we have the trucker issue as well. If anyone looks around now, you will find a relative shortage of truckers. Increasing the number of trucks only increases the number of drivers since most trucks usually carry one or two containers. On a few occasions you will see 3. what are we going to see on these corridors, ten container truck trains? A train needs few employees and extra cars can be added with no addl crew memmbers req. Now astute folks will guess, ah yes...Mexican truck drivers will be recruited. Then there is the whole land aquisiton and construction business. According to the web site, an undetermined amount of financing will originate from what will essentially be user fees. No studies on traffic levels needed to pay for it. No consideration whether truckers would use it if fees were to high. Then the debt financing issue. The original interstate system was built when US oil production was at its zenith and the economy seemingly limitless. This is most certainly not the case now.

I am not even going to get into the flawed statistics used to justify the boondoggle in the first place.

A cursory examination of the plan indicates "the numbers just dont pencil out".

Even if globalization were able to continue through some miraculous oil find, a more prudent and efficient way to move containers would be to import them through super massive ports, place them on long rail cars to inland rail/truck terminals which at that point would get delivered via trucking. No transcontinental freeway required, just a few rail routes with double or quadruple tracking and some imagination.

Certainly not sexy and would put far fewer dollars into truck manufacturers, construction interests, developers and anyone else likely to make a buck off this idea. Its obvious, no one with any brains is working on this project or allowed to propose an alternative solution.


I follow the rail industry -- I'm a train nerd, make my own biodiesel, grow my own garden, am taking up hunting, am a mild-level PO Doomer when just a few short years ago I was a long haired, stud guitarist who was fairly hip with the ladies...but I digress.

I was reading this thread and kept thinking to my self, "Self, we can already do this -- it's called Kansas City Southern!" KCS merged with the largest railroad in Mexico and is essentially NAFTA rail. There is NOT ONE LOGICAL REASON TO BUILD A SUPERHIGHWAY WHEN THE UNITED STATES, MEXICO AND CANADA ALREADY HAVE THE RAIL CAPACITY TO MOVE CONTAINERS.

Kansas City Southern Site

If this does indeed, go through, i will, indeed, be further disgusted.
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby pea-jay » Sun 09 Jul 2006, 04:31:18

Another part of the puzzle is land use related. Part of whats behind the increasing demand for highway miles is the increase in trucking due to the proliferation of distribution center models of retailing. Most of those distribution centers are situated far away from existing rail lines (centers situate themselves wherever land was cheap). With that in mind, it would make more sense to expend the money to build distribution centers immediately adjacent to multimodal transfer stations. Not an entire roadway from scratch
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby LadyRuby » Fri 21 Jul 2006, 12:00:34

THis isn't the only superhighway. They're seriously looking at 24-lane highways in Georgia and Arizona. Insane.
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby Backtosteam » Fri 21 Jul 2006, 22:33:01

I'd be surprised if today's concept of this is built in any way. You may see bits and pieces built, but it will never live up to its original billing. Way too much coordination. Look how long it took to build the transporation infrastructure we have today and it's completely non-integrated. I don't think we even have the engineering manpower available to do a fraction of it. Super big does not scale linearly...just ask Airbus.
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby Denny » Mon 24 Jul 2006, 22:11:23

Canis-Lupus:

I agree with you 100%. It would of great interest if anyone with railway experience could estimate how many shipping containers a day, double stacked, that one double track rail line could handle.

Then compare that to how many like containers could be moved per day wiht a our lane highway.

Given the potential density of a a train vs. individual rigs, each needing a gap of four vehicle lengths and then single vs. double stacked. I bet it would be to the order of a ten to one ratio.

And, just when it did it become fashionable to promote moving port work right out of the country, just to escape union wages? Does the American business leadership carry a death wish toward the American worker?
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby rogerhb » Mon 24 Jul 2006, 22:18:46

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Denny', 'D')oes the American business leadership carry a death wish toward the American worker?


Yes, people are only useful if

(a) they can buy stuff

(b) they work for the bare minimum

otherwise they are a drain on profits.

People aren't needed for voting in the US anymore as that is

(a) automated

(b) the particular party in power is irrelevant
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby wxman » Mon 24 Jul 2006, 22:59:28

What the hell is wrong with you people? I found this place about a year ago and was fascinated with the idea of "peak oil". But all of these insane conspiracy theories, from 9/11 to this superhighway have almost completely turned me off to this site. What is it that makes you believe one article from Corsi over common fucking sense? What is it that makes Corsi more believable than the "myths debunked" part of the NASCO site?

THERE IS NO WAY THAT THIS WILL EVER HAPPEN OR WAS EVER EVEN CONSIDERED.
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby LadyRuby » Mon 24 Jul 2006, 23:28:27

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wxman', 'W')hat the hell is wrong with you people? I found this place about a year ago and was fascinated with the idea of "peak oil". But all of these insane conspiracy theories, from 9/11 to this superhighway have almost completely turned me off to this site. What is it that makes you believe one article from Corsi over common fucking sense? What is it that makes Corsi more believable than the "myths debunked" part of the NASCO site?

THERE IS NO WAY THAT THIS WILL EVER HAPPEN OR WAS EVER EVEN CONSIDERED.


What are you talking about. They are really looking at a 24-lane highway in Arizona!

Tempe meeting minutes

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')genda Item 4 – I-10 Road Widening Project
Eric explained that ADOT is seeking to double the capacity of I-10 (from 12-24 lanes) in the area extending from Baseline Road north to the SR51 connection.


More tempe meeting minutes

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')genda Item 4 – I-10 Corridor

Carlos stated that staff has been working with the Planning and Project Review Committee to draft a letter outlining concerns the Transportation Commission has in relation to the Arizona Department of Transportation’s I-10 Corridor Study.
Dave Hanna stated that the Planning and Project Review Committee felt that there is no question that traffic volumes will increase over the next 20 years. However, it was felt that
ADOT has not explored other methods of moving vehicles beyond adding lanes to the freeway system. He stated that the request to reduce from 24-lanes to 20-lanes was a device to get
them to begin exploring other methods of moving people from point A to point B. He added that because the 24-lanes ADOT has planned to build is manageable within their current right-ofway,
Planning and Project Review felt that ADOT should build for something less than maximum and if maximum comes to fruition sometime in the future the ability to expand would still exist.
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby LadyRuby » Mon 24 Jul 2006, 23:35:46

And this in Atlanta, GA:

That's Right: 23 Lanes of Traffic

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')acking any other noteworthy legacy, outgoing Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta may be best remembered for his proposals to relieve transportation congestion by encouraging private investment in mega-road projects.

The idea has merit: In some locations, private investment in toll roads can — with appropriate local deliberation — make sense.

But Mineta amazingly omitted both freight-railroad improvements and potential passenger-rail improvement in the expansive congestion-relief initiative for America he unveiled last month.

The danger of his formula is a wave of steamrolled, behind-the-scenes road-building deals that ignore the many opportunities for commuter and city rail expansion that clearly do reduce congestion.

For Exhibit A of the perils, check what's happening in fast-growing Atlanta. First, there's the sheer immensity of what the Georgia Department of Transportation favors. Top example: a widening of I-75 in fast-growing, suburban Cobb County, as it heads into the city, to include an incredible mile-long section of no less than 23 lanes.
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby emersonbiggins » Tue 25 Jul 2006, 09:00:52

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('wxman', 'T')HERE IS NO WAY THAT THIS WILL EVER HAPPEN OR WAS EVER EVEN CONSIDERED.


No less than TPTB of the Texas government, namely Gov. Rick Perry & TxDOT, have developed the idea for the superhighway.

In fact, here's the website. There's no ignoring the elephant now.

Take a look at that copyright at the bottom - "TxDOT." That's who is pushing the project.

Keep Texas Moving - Official TTC Website
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby wxman » Tue 25 Jul 2006, 09:53:08

Ladyruby,

You are talking about small segments of road in major cities. This thread is about a superhighway from border to border.

MYTH: The proposed NAFTA Superhighway will be four football fields wide….

There is no new, proposed "NAFTA Superhighway"

MYTH: The map on the website is a secretly approved plan for the proposed NAFTA Superhighway…

The map is not a plan or blueprint of any kind. The infrastructure depicted on the map is not drawn to scale. The highways shown on the map exist today

MYTH: Our mission PROVES that we are building something new….

Our mission is to develop (NOT BUILD) the world’s first international, integrated and secure, multimodal
transportation system along the International Mid-Continent Trade and Transportation Corridor to improve both the trade competitiveness and quality of life in North America. Out of EXISTING infrastructure.
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby grabby » Wed 26 Jul 2006, 01:40:56

we saw how trade competitiveness really helped our job situation in the USA.

just as Ross Perot said
"Youll hear a giant sucking sound of jobs going south"
so it will be again.
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Re: Super Highway Stupidity

Unread postby tugboat » Wed 26 Jul 2006, 12:25:18

Good article and links on transportation:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/7/24/181920/012
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Roads: Post PO Road Deterioration, I Wonder?

Unread postby SILENTTODD » Sun 30 Jul 2006, 17:36:25

Here is a question that has gone through my mind many of times and I’ve seen a number posts alluding to it since I started reading this forum. In a post Peak Oil world how long will the roads last? I agree, the system of roads and interstate highways we have in the United States took a tremendous amount of energy to produce, which we will not be able to reproduce in a Post Peak Oil environment. But that being said, how long will the existing infrastructure last?

My understanding is most of the real damage you see on roads, potholes, cracks, and even breaks are done to the surface as the result of heavy truck traffic. You notice this more if you drive in the slow lanes as I do (I have tried to squeeze every MPG from my tank since 1973). The slow lanes (the truck lanes) to the right of the road in the U.S. are the lanes with the most damage to them. The one fast lane to the left, the trucks are not allowed on, are usually in pretty good shape. On a recent trip I took a month ago I traveled down highway 198 west of the Lemoore Naval Air Station in central California. I know this highway was built in 1961, but it did no look as if it had ever been repaved in all that time. It’s 2 lane road and not a commerce route so subsequently there has never been a lot of heavy truck traffic on it. I noted it was still in great shape , you could drive 100 MPH down it with no worry (As I stupidly use to do as teenager).

I have read there are places where Roman Roads exist 2000 years after they were built. During the first Crusade to the middle east, the Crusader armies marched down the coast of Turkey and Lebanon on these same Roman Roads 500 to 600 years after there was any government to maintain them. Makes me wonder how long modern roads will hold up once heavy truck traffic becomes extinct?

Interstate trucking will probably be one of the first casualties of Peak Oil It just will not be economically viable anymore. Trains will be become the only way to transport products for any distance over land. Trucks will still be used for short haul (from the train depots) so those roads near by will still suffer the most damage and be as bad off as some of the postings predict.

But the interstate highways may stay in good shape for maybe centuries. I’m sure there was better engineering that went into them than the Roman Roads. The Romans, as ingenious has they were, could rely on only trail and error to come up with good designs.

There must be Civil Engineers and people with road building experience who are members of this form who could comment on this from a professional stand point. Any one else is of course free to add their 2 bits but I would be interested in a professional’s opinion.
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Re: Post PO Road Deterioration, I Wonder?

Unread postby Etalon » Sun 30 Jul 2006, 18:02:59

I think they road system should last a while, although you may have to clear off a few burnt out cars.

Dont underestimate the romans, they didnt spend all their money on PR, and had slave labour to help them.
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