[NEOPO]

Ruppert should be all over this!!!! joking of course

Now see how I twisted that headline to draw some attention?

Ok here is the real story.

Mushroom drug produces mystical experience

Discuss?

Come out of your "drug" closets

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')ven two months after taking the drug, pronounced SILL-oh-SY-bin, most of the volunteers said the experience had changed them in beneficial ways, such as making them more compassionate, loving, optimistic and patient. Family members and friends said they noticed a difference, too.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', ' ')Getting high does not give you mystical revelations of self-understanding. The only mind expansion that occurs is that you realize "Man, I never knew I could get THAT high!"

[zberry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's called "Getting High". There's nothing mystical about it.

[NiKfUrY69]

Deja vue, doodz.

NiK

[EnergyHog]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')ven two months after taking the drug, pronounced SILL-oh-SY-bin, most of the volunteers said the experience had changed them in beneficial ways, such as making them more compassionate, loving, optimistic and patient. Family members and friends said they noticed a difference, too.

[mmasters]

Some of the greatest and most beneficial experiences of my life have occured when I was using psychedelics. It all depends on what you use them for. If you use these substances for the pure purpose of "getting high" then don't expect much in return (then again, do a substance like 2C-E or 5-MEO-DMT with the purpose of getting high, you'll get an psychological ass kicking within an inch of your life).

You can't stereotype chemicals either, they are all different. Some can be quite horrible like heroin and then some can be utterly life changing like ecstacy. It goes the whole range. I don't think Psilocybin is particularly that beneficial.

[JustinFrankl]

"If you live in a free country, you have the right to put whatever you want into your own body. Anything else ... is bullshit."
-- Penn Jillette, Bullshit! - The War on Drugs

If a drug can help someone's bottom line, it's legal. If it interferes with productivity, it's out. Alcohol and cigarettes, for all their social costs, make obscene amounts of money for industry, which is why they are still legal.

If there is a long, slow decline rather than a sudden crash, we may yet see a broad decriminalization of marijuana and hemp, as it will become more profitable to use them than petroleum-based synthetics.

[Vexed]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'C')ome out of your "drug" closets Wink

[gg3]

The new study replicates the findings of a study done literally 40 years ago (the lead researcher was Walter Pahnke and the project was known as "the Good Friday experiment"). In both studies, a rigorous typology of mystical experience was used, placebo compounds were also used, and the subjects had no prior experience with the test drug or related substances.

Tommy, sorry but your circumstances were radically different. By your own words you were engaged in pretty severe polydrug abuse. What that does to your brain chemistry makes you about as likely to have a mystical experience from psilocybin, as a heroin addict is likely to get effective pain relief from Tylenol w/ codiene.

The point here being that for any given compound, the ratios of risk to benefit to harm, or for that matter the probability of the compound producing the intended clinical effects, are both improved by using the compound responsibly and under properly controlled conditions. Gobbling and snorting handfulls of whatever, until your nose bleeds and your brains squirt out your ears, does not qualify as that.

Among the vast amount of damage done to American culture by the 1960s generation, was the abuse of psychedelics to the point where these compounds were consigned to the scientific Siberia of FDA Schedule 1. Forty years of potential scientific and medical research were thereby lost. Numerous researchers who could have made significant contributions to our understanding of cognitive science and clinical psychology did not have that chance.

The same thing happened again in the 1980s with entactogens such as MDMA. And here I should say that I was involved academically with the research community that overlapped to some degree with those who were studying this class of compounds, and we were all downright furious about the street-level abuse and the resulting exile of these drugs to Schedule 1.

As for clinical applications, if you've ever known someone who's gone through the anguish of terminal illness, you can understand the value of a compound such as psilocybin that can help them come peacefully to terms with their own impending death. If you've ever known a veteran or anyone else who suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), you can understand the value of a compound such as MDMA that can help them overcome the emotional wounds of war.

This is deadly serious business, as much so as the treatment of suicidal depression or overt physical pain.

And if these compounds, administered under controlled conditions by properly trained practitioners, can help normal people to achieve beneficial insights, that too is of great value.

I look forward to the day when psilocybin, MDMA, and the rest of those compounds, come back from Schedule 1 exile, to Schedule 2 where they can be administered in research studies and clinical settings. Think of the change in our culture that occurred when chronic anxiety and chronic depression became routinely treatable with new classes of medications. For that matter think of the change that occurred when erectile dysfunction became routinely treatable (we may chuckle about it today, but in the past it was a truly cruel joke).

All of these medications turned what had formerly been personal tragedies into manageable situations. We may complain about Big Pharma, but all of these are examples of how advances in pharmacology have truly improved the quality of life for millions of people. Psychedelics and entactogens, used with appropriate precautions, hold similar promise for the future.

[Doly]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', '
')As for clinical applications, if you've ever known someone who's gone through the anguish of terminal illness, you can understand the value of a compound such as psilocybin that can help them come peacefully to terms with their own impending death. If you've ever known a veteran or anyone else who suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), you can understand the value of a compound such as MDMA that can help them overcome the emotional wounds of war.

This is deadly serious business, as much so as the treatment of suicidal depression or overt physical pain.

And if these compounds, administered under controlled conditions by properly trained practitioners, can help normal people to achieve beneficial insights, that too is of great value.

I look forward to the day when psilocybin, MDMA, and the rest of those compounds, come back from Schedule 1 exile, to Schedule 2 where they can be administered in research studies and clinical settings. Think of the change in our culture that occurred when chronic anxiety and chronic depression became routinely treatable with new classes of medications.

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'A')nd if these compounds, administered under controlled conditions by properly trained practitioners, can help normal people to achieve beneficial insights, that too is of great value.

[Heineken]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'A')nd if these compounds, administered under controlled conditions by properly trained practitioners, can help normal people to achieve beneficial insights, that too is of great value.

[katkinkate]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('TommyJefferson', '.')...I've forgotten the name of the phenomena, but these people are experiencing the effect wherein you experience a certain effect because you were told you were supposed to; the power of suggestion.....

[gg3]

Most of the cynical remarks being made here show a relative lack of knowledge about experimental protocol in the human sciences.

For example, suggestion & the placebo effect:

First, this is why double-blind studies are used. Research subjects were told this was a study of the effects of drugs on states of consciousness, they were not told it was a study of mystical experience in particular. Next they were told they could receive any of a number of compounds including psilocybin and numerous others including various stimulants, depressants, narcotic analgesics, etc. Caffein was included in the list (presumably so it would be seen as the control). The monitors who observed the subjects' behavior during the sessions were not aware of what compound was administered in any given session. Subjects were instructed to lie on a counch with eyeshades on, listening to classical music over headphones: thus the overt behavioral effects were attenuated. Interviewers were also kept in the dark as to which substances had been administered, and stuck to a standard interview format and questions. Etc. etc. No one knew who got what compounds when, until after all data collection had been completed.

Second, you don't get p<.001 effects with placebos. "p<.001" means "the probability of the difference in outcomes between the test and control conditions (psilocybin vs. other compounds) occurring by chance, was less than 1 in 1,000." You don't get that degree of stastical significance with placebos -far from it.

I've read more than my fair share of peer-reviewed science papers and Griffiths et. al. did a damn good job with their experimental design and medhodology. The results also replicate earlier studies; in fact, the steps Griffiths took to tighten up his protocol compared to earlier studies, appear to have led to even more robust findings.

Re. medication and mental illness:

One study after another shows that the best treatment approach for psychiatric ailments is a *combination* of medication to treat the biological aspects, *and* cognitive therapy (e.g. counseling) to teach the individual to develop healthy insights, attitudes and behaviors.

Some number of individuals will benefit from medication alone, some from cognitive therapy alone, and a small number of each are placebo responses. But the point of the present study was *not* to find the most effective way to produce mystical experiences, it was to determine if psilocybin was capable of producing these experiences, for which the results were positive.

In fact, based on the precedent from psychiatry (two paragraphs above), the most effective way to produce mystical experiences would be a combination of cognitive practices (prayer, meditation, study of scripture) and medication (psilocybin). This should not be surprising. At some point in the future these types of combined interventions may become routine.

As a personal aside, I happen to agree that contemplating math and science is a viable route to mystical experience, but that's also my own subjectivity speaking!:-)

Doly re. "Over-rated:"

Depends on the individual. Some people would also describe a given piece of classical music as deeply inspiring, while others describe it as mildly enjoyable or even boring. The fact that the latter occurs does not invalidate the former.

60-something percent of the volunteers for the Griffiths study reported outcomes that met an independent set of criteria for mystical experience. This is not about "getting high and having fun." These experiences were also very often highly challenging, including fear of the unknown, fear of ego dissolution, and so on.

TommyJ re. "they can't."

The science on this says you're mistaken. See also above re. placebo effects & suggestion: those were controlled in the study design.

"Experienced drug users" is very often a euphemism for people who are engaged in risky and harmful misuse of drugs, and in any case, they are not the same thing as research subjects in a controlled setting.

I'll agree that "years of study (etc.) ...and thoughtful reflection" are the most productive ways to seek and practice enlightenment. Though, the resesarch project was not looking at classical enlightenment as a trait variable. In fact this gets at one of my pet peeves about pharmacological approaches to psychiatry in general: treating the biochemistry is only half the equation; the cognitive therapy (or in the case of mysticism, the meditation and study and so on) is the other half, and one without the other may produce incomplete results. For most of the people most of the time, there will never be a need to take psilocybin (or antidepressents or etc....), but it's important to have these medications available for those who will benefit from them.

(And last but not least, I'm more skeptical about nanotech & genetic magic than you are about pharmacology!)

[TommyJefferson]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('gg3', 'T')ommyJ re. "they can't."
The science on this says you're mistaken. See also above re. placebo effects & suggestion: those were controlled in the study design.

[NEOPO]

I suppose this is "normal".

To base an opinion on one article, on our parents beliefs, on personal experience alone or a combination is very common it seems.

Sagan - To live a short yet aware life versus a long yet ignorant one......hmmm.
I wonder if cancer was genetic or perhaps a result of the environment, asbestos etc etc... kinda hard to say.

Just another example of how we put 1 with 1 and make 3.

gg3 - good work

[gg3]

Tommy, ten points for copping to an error; if more people did that the world wouldn't be going down the toilet at the moment.

As far as lasting changes are concerned, that depends on individuals and contexts. This is why combined approaches are useful. Now we have pretty solid results saying psilocybin is "safe & effective when used as directed," and does produce mystical experiences. The next step forward is to find ways to reduce the dosages and increase the cognitive discipline aspects of an overall treatment protocol.

The goal here would be a protocol that uses the minimum dosage of psilocybin plus as much of the cognitive element as possible. This is consistent with conventional pharmacotherapeutic approaches to all forms of physical and psychiatric illness, that always call for using the minimum dosage of whatever compound for whatever purpose.

So for example we might find the protocol eventually goes like this:

Four weeks of daily practice of prayer, meditation, study of scriptures, and so on, with charitable good works one day each weekend, and where relevant, attendance of worship services (or for the atheists and anyone else who's interested, attendance of group discussions of relevant philosophical principles). One evening each week, a one-hour check-in session with the therapist (or whatever you'd call this person in this context) to discuss relevant ideas & experiences.

Then one weekend, a properly guided session involving let's say 10 milligrams of psilocybin (rather than the 30 used in the Griffiths study) and all day prayer & meditation on the events of the past four weeks.

Then an additional four weeks of the daily practice regimen. Then one weekend of a guided session involving prayer & meditation but no psilocybin, the point of this being to anchor the entire series of experiences into a form that can be sustained over the long term.

At that point you'd be looking for persistent positive changes in attitude & behavior, including the regular ongoing practice of the various cognitive disciplines.

(And note here, for atheists, substitute philosophical studies for prayer and scriptural studies. We are not trying to make theists out of atheists, only trying to provide a framework for practices that lead toward a more integral outlook and behavior.)