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2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby directinfo » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 04:59:27

In mid 2005 I posted a picture on peakoil.com of the collapse-bound teetering US economy.

It was a "U" shaped curve showing the US debt-to-gdp ratio, with the high point on the left side crashing down 1929 and the high point on the right side much higher than even in 1929.

Those were 2004 numbers. For reference, the chart is in this post - http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic11626.html

Now, using the same chart, I have updated the numbers in blue text.

Image

Pretty scary, eh?

And that's not the worst of it.

According to some research I stumbled upon from Michael Hodges' excellent Grandfather Economic Report Series, I found the following quote:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '"')If the GDP methodology of 1980 were applied to today's data, the 2004 second quarter's annualized inflation-adjusted GDP growth of 3.0% would be roughly three percent lower (effectively netting to zero percent or below). In like manner, current annual CPI inflation is understated by about 2.7% against the pre-Clinton CPI methodology (would be about 5.7%), and the unemployment rate is understated by about seven percent against its original design and what many people would consider to be actual unemployment (would be about 12.5%)."

- end of article from Gillespie Research


OK, so we aren't suffering just 380% upside-down Debt-to-GDP ratio, but we are closer to 400%, or a full 130 points ABOVE the impossible situation in 1929.

We are all thinking "cleansing the system" right now, and "market correction" and "swing of the pendulum"... but wait... there is more.

The parabolic curve is looking particularly nasty this time. The below chart using 2005 numbers taken from Hodges' website will give you a "feel" of that.

Image

That thin red line of total debt looks like one of those big Olympic ski jumps doesn't it?

My eyes start rolling in their sockets trying to imagine where we are going to land when we cross the tipping point. And then I picked up Bill Buckler's latest analysis from the Privateer. He says:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o economy has ever in history managed to stand with a debt load of nearly 400 percent of its GDP, and that is without accounting for the bigger unfunded debts*

* (Note - The unfunded debts were mentioned in the same article at 57 trillion, higher than both net external and internal debts, public and private... ugh! -Tate)


To make matters worse, inflation of the money supply continues along the same parabolic curve.

Image

That thin blue line (representing your money) looks like water in a bath tub sinking down the drain.

Every fiat currency eventually finds the value of the paper it was printed on - ZERO. Now is our time.

And I don't need to remind readers of Peak Oil what is the really big mega, mother of all drivers to this and everything else in our society, right?

Image

Solution?

As always, I can only think of the following:
    1- buy silver
    2- move closer to and hopefully producing commodities within organically viable land, far from mega city and suburban sprawl
    3- get totally divested of grid-reliant real estate, farms, businesses
    4- get totally divested of all dollar-denominated holdings like stocks, bills, bonds, funds... except for "risk capital" for short-term plays if that is your thing.
    5- get more silver
    6- move back with extended family, to the degree possible (re-establish blood-bonds, take granny back out of her nursing home. Family was our base survival structure historically. Oil gave us the temporary illlusion of "independence".)
    7- get into a community of like-minded producers
    8- draft a continually evolving strategic plan, and alternative plans for when plans fall apart or new opportunities emerge. (we don't need A PLAN... we need OPTIONS)
    9- accept only a mindset that sees "challenge" and "opportunity" within this mess or on the other side of this mess
    10- get yet again more silver


Whatever the personal solution mix we might consider, the time for seriously considered and effective action has been with us for a long time. These clear and unprecedented signals can't just keep continuing up those Olympic ski slopes year-after-year without an even greater correction due.

Ugh... and our brain-dead culture just continues onwards, many are even hostile to any suggestion that they change their "non-negotiable" way of life.

Double Ugh!...

Good luck!
Last edited by directinfo on Tue 11 Jul 2006, 14:14:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby Doly » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 05:53:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o economy has ever in history managed to stand with a debt load of nearly 400 percent of its GDP, and that is without accounting for the bigger unfunded debts*


Wait a moment...

This guy is saying that the USA owe FOUR times what they have? In other words, that if all the people USA owes money to came to ask for their money, the WHOLE country would be sold and still, only ONE FOURTH of the creditors would get their debts paid? 8O 8O 8O

If this is true, shouldn't at least some of them be trying to get their money back, while they still have any chance? Is this happening? If not, why isn't it happening?

What are the official debt-to-GDP ratio figures?
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby directinfo » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 06:49:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o economy has ever in history managed to stand with a debt load of nearly 400 percent of its GDP, and that is without accounting for the bigger unfunded debts*


Wait a moment...

This guy is saying that the USA owe FOUR times what they have? In other words, that if all the people USA owes money to came to ask for their money, the WHOLE country would be sold and still, only ONE FOURTH of the creditors would get their debts paid? If this is true, shouldn't at least some of them be trying to get their money back, while they still have any chance? Is this happening? If not, why isn't it happening?

What are the official debt-to-GDP ratio figures?


Amazing, yes?

We earn 13 trillion and owe 49.4 trillion.

Them's official numbers.

If we start adjusting what they adjusted, we get a WORSE picture.

The 49.4 trillion doesn't even cover the massive future promises to social security, medicaid, etc... All doomed!

How did we get here?

Good question... I will speculate on a few reasons and someone else might chime in. The reasons are like torrent of rain drops.

    1 - Because we HAD (fast becoming a past tense issue now) the world's only reserve currency.
    2 - Because so many other countries hold and trade with dollars.
    3 - Because oil does all our work for us.
    4 - Because we have used our houses as ATM machines and we are getting upside down now in many areas (owe more than worth).
    5 - Because every 70-80 years or so, we have a boom-crash event. This is our time.
    6 - And because the illegal Federal Reserve is a foreign-owned central bank with the power to print fiat notes unbacked by any asset. That = Criminal mafia government ponzi scheme, full stop.
    7 - And perhaps we got here because we have no living knowledge of what hard times are like in our country.


The crash will come when any number of triggers start taking place, chief among them in my book (speculation here...) is when China gets tired of holding devaluing dollars and they start flooding the market with our confetti.

It is a serious time of monumental correction right about now... and still we sleep because we simply don't recognize the converging catastrophes.

So, check out the numbers and get back to us here with your findings. Being amazed will hopefully provide motivation to trade worthless toilet paper dollar denominated holdings for booming silver and gold.

Unfortunately, we ain't seen nuthin' yet.

The good news is that if you prepare, you can wildly benefit in the next 1-10 years especially.
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby MacG » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 07:02:50

Some funny perspectives: Silver content of Roman coinage (from Tainter on DieOff.com)


Image
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby directinfo » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 08:27:01

Here is more from Bill Buckler's latest Privateer, showing the pickle or the squeeze or the cliff or the impossible situation that we are in.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '-')----------(snip)-------------------

Physically Intact - Financially Prostrate:

Economically, in the most basic of ways, the US today is
financially a Germany of 1945 - but in reverse.
It is in reverse because the US is physically intact but its huge
financial system is way beyond economic recovery. This fact
is easily proven. No economy has ever in history managed to
stand with a debt load of nearly 400 percent of its GDP, and
that is without accounting for the bigger unfunded debts.

RADICAL Alternative Cases:

If the proverbial "financial neutron bomb", the one which
destroys all financial instruments and all the cash paper
money, was to strike the US financial system overnight, the
US would still stand physically in an undamaged position with
all structures intact. It could, just as post-war West Germany
did, restart by the simply means of putting another paper
Dollar into circulation, this one without the debt over-hang.

If the proverbial "monetary inflation bomb" strikes, the one
which overnight adds 2,3,4 or 5 zeroes to each individual's
cash holdings and to their accounts in the financial system, the
US would still stand physically intact. But its paper money
and money on account or deposit would be void in its
purchasing power. Still being legal tender, it would certainly
be very easy to pay all debts off.

Financially And Economically - The US Is Boxed-In:

Since neither of these two out-at-the-edge cases are likely, the
US is stuck somewhere in between. A financial recovery
would require that the US Federal and all State budgets were
brought back into real surplus with the surpluses used to pay
down past outstanding debts. If these surpluses were gained
through tax increases with government spending remaining at
current levels, the result would be a severe recession as living
standards fell because of the higher taxes being paid. The
other means is through spending cuts. Even that would be
recessionary, but not as bad because the artificial "stimulus"
would no longer be there. At least most Americans would
manage to maintain their current standard of living.

The US could not stop there. Its massive credit expansion
would also have to be brought to a dead halt. That would
mean higher interest rates, rates so high that the volume of
new loans dried up. The act of raising US interest rates to
such a height would trap all US borrowers, private or
business, with higher costs for all their past debts.
Bankruptcies would be the result and the financial system
would take losses.

Even then, this would not be enough. A lengthy period of real
monetary savings would have to take place to set the
economic foundation for new investments in capital plant and
machinery before the US could start to increase its real output
and begin to sell to the world and in that manner repay
external debt.

As The Privateer has repeatedly stated, the real damage has
already been done. The height of debts show this damage and
now the debts are here, they really are here. The Privateer is
also certain that today there are few, if any, US politicians
prepared or willing to act in this direction, even incrementally,
so there is no economic solution in sight from the US political
side. Lastly, The Privateer is fully certain that if the
American public discovered that there was a five to fifteen
year (see the cases of Russia, Germany and China) job in front
of them to repair their financial system and their real
producing economy, there would be riots in the streets of the
US. Be that as it may, the "BOOMERS" will act to cause a
resolution.

The "boomers" are, of course, the baby boomers, the 75
million Americans who are now 42 to 60 years old and are
heading toward retirement. Most of them have next to no real
monetary savings - but they sure have debt. By 2008, the first
of this fabled generation will turn 62 and apply for Social
Security pension payments. By 2011, they start to become
eligible for Medicare health care payments. All these payouts
will multiply so that by about 2030, they will be claiming 18
percent of US GDP.

That would amount to almost ALL the tax revenues now
collected by the US government. THAT would leave a total
of ZERO Dollars for any other spending - including spending
for defence and education.

The Insoluble Dilemma:

Future baby boomer "entitlements" equalling present tax
revenues just about wraps up the situation which is now
rolling towards the USA. On hard economic fundamentals, it
comes down to a doubling of taxes in the US over the generation
ahead - or a brutal printing of money in lieu of raising taxes -
or a blunt denial of payment, or lower payments to the elderly
and the retiring by ever tighter bureaucratic means.

On present actuarial calculations, the unfunded liability for
the "boomers" comes to $US 57 TRILLION. Yes, the
"boomers" have paid their taxes, but all this money has
already been spent.

How It Could Have Been:

If, after the Civil War and the Greenback episode when the
US Treasury simply printed its own paper money as required
for the purposes of the war, Americans had avoided the early
growth of the welfare state, the current situation would never
have arisen. The post Civil War Greenback period itself, in
fact, had a profound public effect. The American public hated
the Greenback because it plummeted in value against Gold
and Silver. This is what eventually caused the US Dollar to
be firmly established on the Gold Standard at the post 1837
rate of $US 20.67 per ounce of Gold. The reason why
Americans had this extraordinary interest in what money was
and its value was because there was no US welfare state.
Each American had the firm understanding that however hard
it might be, they had to save. To save in a money which lost
its value over time was understood to be the negation of
savings for the purpose of having the monetary means in hand
with which to live when one later approached one's older years.

But with the growth of the slowly expanding US welfare state
after WW I and with the later arrival of Presidents Roosevelt,
Kennedy and Johnson with the latter's "Great Society"
programs, Americans lost interest in personal savings. They
had been promised money to retire on by sequential
presidents. These political promises have now reached the
astounding and unfunded height of $US 57 TRILLION!

Four Parallel Economic Cases:

The post 1991 case of Russia is brutally economically simple.
After its international debt default and its financial collapse,
the Ruble was worthless, as were the debts owed in Rubles.
Russia fell into an economic depression much deeper than the
one the US had in the 1930s. The Russian mortality tables
soared and the average length of life in Russia contracted by
nearly ten years. The obvious result was that millions of
elderly Russians died of cold in unheated apartments and lack
of sufficient food, their former pensions now being near
worthless. In the case of post war Germany, the years from
1945 to 1955 were very hard. But with a new hard currency,
the D-Mark, there was again money in circulation worth
saving and the Germans did just that - for a while. But with
the re-expansion of the German welfare state in the 1970s and
1980s, the private German savings rate slowed down
markedly, though to this day Germans in general still save
about 12-14 percent of their individual monetary earnings.
China had to wait until after Mao and the breaking of the
"iron rice bowl" - the common rice bowl everybody was
supposed to eat out of. But now, Chinese individual private
savings have soared to 30-40 percent of all individual private
Chinese monetary earnings. The comparative US case is
simple. There are NO US savings - NONE!

-----------(snip)-------------------

------------------------------
Copyright 2006 - The Privateer
http://www.the-privateer.com
capt@the-privateer.com
(quoted with permission)
------------------------------


Conclusion: Only one way out of this is through unprecedented crash, as always.
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby bobbyald » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 10:02:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his guy is saying that the USA owe FOUR times what they have? In other words, that if all the people USA owes money to came to ask for their money, the WHOLE country would be sold and still, only ONE FOURTH of the creditors would get their debts paid?


Not quite - GDP is an annual figure so if all the people the USA owe money to ask for it, it would take 4 years to pay it back. However, the citizens of the USA need money to live, so if they tightened their belts and lived off, say, 90% of what they do now it would take 40 years to clear the debt (plus interest). This is no problem they say because the USA can afford the interest and can grow the economy at a rate that will make future payments seem trivial - hence no problem. In fact borrow more because the economy will grow even faster and future payments will seem even more trivial.

Ok – You probably spotted the flaw in the above logic but unfortunately our esteemed leaders haven’t and this is how they think. Now if we add some small difficultly into this “grow forever” logic, say, peak oil …
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby EnergyHog » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 10:14:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o economy has ever in history managed to stand with a debt load of nearly 400 percent of its GDP, and that is without accounting for the bigger unfunded debts*


Wait a moment...

This guy is saying that the USA owe FOUR times what they have? In other words, that if all the people USA owes money to came to ask for their money, the WHOLE country would be sold and still, only ONE FOURTH of the creditors would get their debts paid? 8O 8O 8O

If this is true, shouldn't at least some of them be trying to get their money back, while they still have any chance? Is this happening? If not, why isn't it happening?

What are the official debt-to-GDP ratio figures?


Pre-1971 financial data has little bearing on today's world because this is not like anything that has ever occurred before. No country has ever been able to pull off the scheme that the US has going on an international scale, it is what I consider to be the greatest scam ever. Every person on earth is being taxed by USD printing.

If oil is crack and the world is addicted then the US is the drug dealers banker. As long as the USD is backed by a diminishing commodity more valuable than gold we can print and print and print without reprocussion (other than pissing everyone off). As oil gets more expensive we can print even more money. If you're predicting $200/bbl oil then you are predicting a very valuable USD due to a much higher demand for USD. What we're seeing though is that the wealth is not getting back to the middle and lower classes. Money can only be created through debt.

Enjoy the incredible benefits that all Americans reap in some form or another from our imperialistic tax on the world. Enjoy it while it lasts and plan for the future because this as it good as it gets and it definately won't last forever. The tipping point isn't our debt/GDP ratio or any other financial indicator, it is simply whether or not oil is exclusively sold in USD (watch for the Russian and Iranian bourses, others are aligning against us).

Gold, silver, guns, food, water filter, seeds, books, and an alcohol still.
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby FireJack » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 10:15:02

Is it possible to make any kind of prediction when or if there will be a sudden crash.
I'm guessing there are people in the backround ready to take control and try to slow it down as much as possible but the situation just keeps escalating. Im putting my bet on this september.
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby bobbyald » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 10:23:33

I should also add that a large chunk of the debt is not owed to foreigners because it’s future commitments. In other words it’s owed to future generations of Americans.

So, given a total debt of 49 trillion and a population of nearly 300m this means that a new born instantly qualifies for $163,000 in debt and, at 5%, annual interest payments in excess of $8,000!
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby Colorado-Valley » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 12:27:07

Could we sell off some of our assets -- Mount Rushmore, Yosemite, Alaska, the Washington Monument, the nuclear arsenal, etc., etc.?

Or perhaps contract out the U.S. middle class as slave labor to various international companies who are tired of paying high chinese wages?
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby hereford » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 13:55:53

Interesting discussion ... I'm really amazed that the U.S. economy has lasted as long as it has. Back in the 80's, I felt the same thing - how much longer could we go with no the deficit spending in the public and private sectors. At some point something has to give. I just don't see how it can go on much longer. Having a new currency replace the dollar seems to be a logical scenario ... I don't know what that really means for the individual debtor or creditor.
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby directinfo » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 14:01:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Colorado-Valley', 'C')ould we sell off some of our assets -- Mount Rushmore, Yosemite, Alaska, the Washington Monument, the nuclear arsenal, etc., etc.?

Or perhaps contract out the U.S. middle class as slave labor to various international companies who are tired of paying high chinese wages?


I believe that we are in the process of selling the United States to the UN. Maybe if we sell our soul that will also help?

Image

Well, that green color is real comforting... "normal use"... and they give us what, about 5% of the country? Ha, what a vision of slavery! How are they going to pull that off?

Well, with the current American prevalent mentality, I would say quite firmly that our leaders can do whatever they want. But they forgot about one thing... post-crash psychology is the mirror opposite of the pre-crash psychology: Whereas one is stupid and greedy, the other is smart and giving. Heroes rise to the occasion that anti-heroes have created.

After we finish selling all of our property, we can sell our bodies. And when that is finished, well, we can beg, but all that is totally unnecessary. All we have to do is ABOLISH THE ILLEGAL, CRIMINAL, FOREIGN-OWNED, UNTAXED, UNAUDITED, FIAT CURRENCY ISSUING CENTRAL BANK CALLED THE FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM.

http://www.freedomtofascism.com/

Mike Ruppert stars in Aaron Russo's new work of heart, click here to find out more...

Watch the trailers online. The info is old, but the film is new... Weee-hooo!
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby MacG » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 14:30:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('directinfo', ' ')All we have to do is ABOLISH THE ILLEGAL, CRIMINAL, FOREIGN-OWNED, UNTAXED, UNAUDITED, FIAT CURRENCY ISSUING CENTRAL BANK CALLED THE FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM.


Agree 100%. Government protected central banking based on debt based fiat fractional reserve money creation is completely unsustainable in the long run.

I have softened significantly the last months though. Although the current system is seriously flawed, what was the known alternatives? In the times when everything was NOT for sale on a global market, the Standard Operating Procedure was to go to war to get what what you wanted.

We are trading under a flawed system which is bound to collapse, but the known alternatives at the time of creation of the current system were significantly worse.
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby JoeCoal » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 00:02:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('directinfo', 'A')ll we have to do is ABOLISH THE ILLEGAL, CRIMINAL, FOREIGN-OWNED, UNTAXED, UNAUDITED, FIAT CURRENCY ISSUING FRACTIONAL RESERVE INFLATING UNCONSTITUTIONAL CENTRAL BANK CALLED THE FEDERAL RESERVE SYSTEM.

[Quote enhanced by quoter]

Second the motion!

We had a chance to dodge the peak oil bullet in 1980 and it was stolen! The Money-Power (Central Banks) (Repocrats) engineered the Iranian hostage situation to drag on until after the election, effectively handing it to Mr. "Morning In America" Regan, instead of "Cardigan" Carter, who would have set things into motion that might have gotten us mostly off of fossil fuels by now.

BAN THE FED!!!
Good night, and good luck...
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby JoeCoal » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 00:16:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MacG', 'A')lthough the current system is seriously flawed, what [were] the known alternatives? In the times when everything was NOT for sale on a global market, the Standard Operating Procedure was to go to war to get what what you wanted.

We are trading under a flawed system which is bound to collapse, but the known alternatives at the time of creation of the current system were significantly worse.

DISAGREE 100%

The Constitution of the United States and The Holy Bible both describe a monetary system that is Fair, Just, Stable, Honest, AND Sustainable.

It's called Honest Weights and Measures of Gold and Silver, and it worked just fine for 5000+ years. EVERY war in the 20th century was financed by a fraudulent Central Bank. Most of the wars in the previous 19th and 18th centuries were the same story -- financed with fraudulent fake paper money by fraudulent Central Banks. If War had to be fought with honest money, most of them would not have happened.

Recently, (1971-present) this system has fallen out of favor with the Sheeple(tm), but this is entirely due to the Corrosive, Deceptive Influence of Central Fractional Reserve Banking (CDIOCFRB). (Read The Mogambo Every Week!) (RTMEW!)

Got Gold?
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby directinfo » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 02:05:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JoeCoal', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MacG', 'A')lthough the current system is seriously flawed, what [were] the known alternatives? In the times when everything was NOT for sale on a global market, the Standard Operating Procedure was to go to war to get what what you wanted.

We are trading under a flawed system which is bound to collapse, but the known alternatives at the time of creation of the current system were significantly worse.

DISAGREE 100%

The Constitution of the United States and The Holy Bible both describe a monetary system that is Fair, Just, Stable, Honest, AND Sustainable.

It's called Honest Weights and Measures of Gold and Silver, and it worked just fine for 5000+ years. EVERY war in the 20th century was financed by a fraudulent Central Bank. Most of the wars in the previous 19th and 18th centuries were the same story -- financed with fraudulent fake paper money by fraudulent Central Banks. If War had to be fought with honest money, most of them would not have happened.

Recently, (1971-present) this system has fallen out of favor with the Sheeple(tm), but this is entirely due to the Corrosive, Deceptive Influence of Central Fractional Reserve Banking (CDIOCFRB). (Read The Mogambo Every Week!) (RTMEW!)

Got Gold?


Agree 100%

I also read Mogambo for the inflatino vs gold stuff and Franklin Sanders covers the silver angle expertly. I first heard about the Biblical "just weights and measures" from an old radio guy named George Gordon. He has been preparing for the crash since the 60's. He is totally self-sufficient out on an organic farm near the Ozarks, Missouri. He teaches a course in Mosaic Law there. Apparently he is a self-taught lawyer who learned how to get totally and legally out of the beast system of Social Security and fiat currency.

He is a recent convert into the whole Peak Oil thing too.

Oh, here is the loveable bastard, right here:
http://www.georgegordon.org/Radio_Archives.htm#Archives

Image

Cheers,
Tate
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby Doly » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 06:30:58

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('JoeCoal', '
')The Constitution of the United States and The Holy Bible both describe a monetary system that is Fair, Just, Stable, Honest, AND Sustainable.

It's called Honest Weights and Measures of Gold and Silver, and it worked just fine for 5000+ years.


Actually, it isn't that simple.

First, the system didn't work fine for 5000 years and then somebody started fiddling with it. Debasing coins was a sport that many countries indulged in since antiquity. Once you have debased a coin, it's damn near impossible to get it back to pure gold or silver, because as soon as you put the pure coins into circulation, people hoard them and use the debased ones to pay their debts.

Secondly, it means that the size of the economy has to be exactly the size of the available gold and silver. If the economy grows (people are producing more stuff), and you still have the same total amount of gold and silver, all prices will have to go down. Ther aren't enough coins to buy everything. If the economy contracts, you have inflation. As you see, the system doesn't guarantee price stability.

What you want is a system where the amount of available money is exactly equal to the size of the economy. When somebody invents that, please tell me about it.
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby MacG » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 07:10:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'W')hat you want is a system where the amount of available money is exactly equal to the size of the economy. When somebody invents that, please tell me about it.


Try Riegel:

http://www.altruists.org/static/files/F ... gel%29.pdf
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby directinfo » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 07:56:15

Guys, guys...

Wait a second.

Please try to follow the following line of thinking.

What we want is something that is a constant measure.

Debasing coins - not constant
Inflating money supply - not constant

Whether we are adding copper to silver or nickel to copper, we are debasing value and making unjust weights and measures (not constant).

Same with money supply.

From the moment we begin making our money un-constant, we automatically hand over the power to take wealth out of the pool of money supply. Hence, we create the money mafia ruling over us with the robust power to take, let's say five percent of the total money supply every year for 100 years and use it for wars and booms and busts and political instigations and political buyouts and social engineering and global government and so on... not pretty.

What we need is to DE-consolidate that power to ZERO.

How?

Just weights and measures.

Use one ounce pure gold and silver coin. The only 5,000 year old currency in the world that has never lost value. We may want to use copper or nickel or anything that can be measured for weight and purity.

And if the economy grows, demand for storing wealth increases and boom, what happens? Like magic: holders of money have an increase in their value as their pure coins experience more demand.

And they are free to invest or keep holding. And the bankers lose that power and shrink in their significance to the economic structure of society, as they should.

So that's my story so far, and I'm sticking to it for now. I haven't stumbled upon anything better.

If you have a better idea, lay it out and let's take a look.

Cheers,
Tate

Image

----- (addition below) -----

OK, here is an illustration of the power of hard money.

Question 1 - What can one ounce of gold get you today?

Answer 1 - Well, a nice pair of pants, a leather belt, a common shirt and a nice pair of leather shoes.

Question 2 - What would one ounce of gold buy in ancient Roman times?

Answer 2 - Well, a nice pair of pants, a leather belt, a common shirt and a nice pair of leather shoes.

Wrong question - "Well now wait a minute. If it can't increase in value then why do we want it?"

Answer to wrong question - "How many currencies have passed through the toiling hands of earners from ancient Roman days until now? All of the crashed and burned. Is that the "earnings" you are looking for? Money should not "earn" but it should "store". To store value, like gold and silver, so flawlessly, it needs to be held at a verifiable content and weight. And then you have perfect market stability. We don't need to employ a banker class to rule over us and regulate our earning power to zero, little by little, with their greedy-crafty calculations and instigations and obfuscations. Eliminate the banker as an elite class. Put him to work for us as an autitable storage of measurable weights and we will trade paper back and forth. Zero inflation. Money increases in value when people demand to hold more of it. And leave the ponzi schemers to the back alley where they belong, criminals -all of them"

So let's cap this position argument off with the latest Mogambo quote:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f Total Fed Credit is up, then I am angry that the Fed is creating more inflationary credit in the banks. If Total Fed Credit is down, on the other hand, I am not happy either, since this means that credit is not being created, which means more money won't be created, which is (as we professional economists refer to it in our scholarly research papers), The Big Freaking Bloodthirsty Horseman Of The Economic Apocalypse (TBFBHOTEA) when you are operating (as we do) a Ponzi economy (financed by inflation in money, prices and debt) and a Ponzi system of governments (financed by increasing debt, size, taxes and spending), based on a derivative currency (electronic digits) that is, in itself, based on a mere fiat/paper currency, with a banking system that allows itself an infinitely low reserve ratio (zero retained cash on hand as reserves against additional deposits or loans).

Taken from article - Ponzi Economy
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Re: 2006 Debt-to-GDP Crash Update

Postby mattduke » Thu 13 Jul 2006, 13:04:10

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Doly', 'S')econdly, it means that the size of the economy has to be exactly the size of the available gold and silver. If the economy grows (people are producing more stuff), and you still have the same total amount of gold and silver, all prices will have to go down. Ther aren't enough coins to buy everything. If the economy contracts, you have inflation. As you see, the system doesn't guarantee price stability.

What you want is a system where the amount of available money is exactly equal to the size of the economy. When somebody invents that, please tell me about it.


More harm has been done in the name of "price stability" than anything else. The economy is a dynamic system. Quantum particles tunnel. Welcome to reality. The idea of maintaining "constant prices" is a terrible idea. Falling prices due to increased production are great. It is an accurate economic signal vital for economic calculation. Falling prices means everyone is richer. Gently falling prices due to increasing production have been the norm throughout history (except where banks inflate). Rising prices are another vital economic signal, indicating increased scarcity or reduced demand. Manipulating the money supply to adjust prices towards some perceived goal is always harmful.
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