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Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

What's on your mind?
General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.
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Should we adopt the Fair Tax?

Yes
15
No votes
No
7
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It hurts to think enough to decide
3
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Total votes : 25

Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby Liamj » Tue 11 Jul 2006, 22:23:58

Sales/consumption taxes make infinitely more sense than income taxes in a resource limited world, but a flat tax?! The rate of tax should be set by energy & material consumption for said product/sector, else the changed tax regieme remains autistic as far as natural limits are concerned.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', '.'). This is what I hate about peak oilers, everyone seems left leaning or socialist...

Ain't it funny how, to the rich, everybody else is a communist and highways/hospitals/imperial armies somehow grow themselves. Are such convenient delusions essential to material success, or is being merely amoral sufficient?
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby 128shot » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 00:51:57

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Liamj', 'S')ales/consumption taxes make infinitely more sense than income taxes in a resource limited world, but a flat tax?! The rate of tax should be set by energy & material consumption for said product/sector, else the changed tax regieme remains autistic as far as natural limits are concerned.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', '.'). This is what I hate about peak oilers, everyone seems left leaning or socialist...

Ain't it funny how, to the rich, everybody else is a communist and highways/hospitals/imperial armies somehow grow themselves. Are such convenient delusions essential to material success, or is being merely amoral sufficient?



Sir/mam

I'm not even rich, just consolodated. I just think its rather funny that 9 times out of 10 when I speak with people who have some "authority" on peak oil they are often left leaning, or socialists, and in some cases, socio-anarchists.


I figure that this why peak oil has such a huge pessimist point of view in general. Marx didn't exactly right positively, his works would make anyone depressed heh.
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby venky » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 01:20:55

What about the Gasoline tax?

Thomas Friedman suggested we should call it the Patriot tax
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby rogerhb » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 05:14:40

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', 'w')ow, people just hate the rich on this forum


If the problem is one of resource scarcity, who do you think will have used up more than their share, the rich or the poor?

Now which 5% of the world uses 25% of the petroleum?
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby Liamj » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 06:47:32

Off Topic, but..
I don't hate you 128shot, I don't even hate the rich. If there is any truth in karma, Islam or Christianity, then I pity 99% of rich folks, cos god is going to give them hell in the next world for being uncharitable in this one.
Oh, and every rich suburb in every western country will be a magnet for every hardup thug who can walk, in the years to come. Good luck.
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby SoothSayer » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 07:41:53

I forsee a lot of "gifts" and barter ....

I didn't SELL him that box of apples ... it was a gift as I had too many ... and he had some spare home baked bread last month, which he gave me to feed my pigs with ....
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby Kingcoal » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 09:56:00

Actually, the progressives created the income tax so as to "tax the rich." Before income taxes, the governments (local/state/federal) for all practical purposes had only excise taxes, tariffs and duties. The progressives said that these consumption taxes (excise taxes) were unfairly regressive and hit the poor the hardest, thus, walla, the income tax. The funny thing is that none of those "evil" excise taxes went away, in fact, there are more of them now than ever.

The moral of this story is that when citizens give their government more taxing authority, they pay more taxes. This national sales tax is like that. If adopted, the income tax would be "phased out over several years, as the new tax is phased in." What would really happen is citizens would end up with BOTH taxes and be paying more than ever. The income tax would still be there and some emergency would arise to "keep it in place just a couple more years."

I have a better idea, why doesn't the federal government REDUCE ITS SPENDING!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 18:12:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Liamj', 'O')ff Topic, but..
I don't hate you 128shot, I don't even hate the rich. If there is any truth in karma, Islam or Christianity, then I pity 99% of rich folks, cos god is going to give them hell in the next world for being uncharitable in this one.
Oh, and every rich suburb in every western country will be a magnet for every hardup thug who can walk, in the years to come. Good luck.


Please don't lump 99% of rich people together with the Waltons.

Most of them give a greater % of their income to charity than society as a whole.

Countless universites, libraries, and parks exist only because rich people created foundations to fund them.

There are the selfish jerks, especially the Walton heirs who refuse to help the rest of the world. But the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is working to eliminate polio and other diseases in the third world. Bill Gates has given away something like 1/2 of his wealth to charity. Warren Buffet is giving tens of billions to that foundation.

The Gates Foundation spent more money last year than the United Nations on vaccinations.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with whether or not the Fair Tax is a sound idea.
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby Liamj » Wed 12 Jul 2006, 21:06:31

More O.T., so sue me.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '.').Please don't lump 99% of rich people together with the Waltons.
Most of them give a greater % of their income to charity than society as a whole. ...
I've heard thats the case in the US, goodo, we aussies envy you. Down under, private philanthropy has never caught on and our millionaires give sweet f.a. . e.g in a nation of 20+ million, there are i've been told 3, thats three, significant private charitable trusts to which enviro/charitable/historic community groups can apply for grant funds. Grants above four figures are rare, above five figures only mythical.

These same groups can apply to gov. for grants, but only if they never utter a word that might be interpreted by anyone as relating to politics or business in any way what so ever, else they lose the grant pronto (as happened to Friends of the Earth).
Meanwhile, one British Lord alone gave PM Howards 'Australian' Liberal party (neo-con lite) a million bucks last year. In some countries, foriegners bankrolling politicians is illegal, even treasonous. In Oz, its tax deductible. :-x
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby 128shot » Thu 13 Jul 2006, 01:32:49

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', 'w')ow, people just hate the rich on this forum


If the problem is one of resource scarcity, who do you think will have used up more than their share, the rich or the poor?

Now which 5% of the world uses 25% of the petroleum?



The only problem I have with this statement is you're ignoring the fact that its everyones problem. So everybody has to agree on a solution.


Pointing fingers doesn't get you anywhere, particularly when it truely is everyones problem!
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby rogerhb » Thu 13 Jul 2006, 06:13:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', 'T')he only problem I have with this statement is you're ignoring the fact that its everyones problem. So everybody has to agree on a solution.


We didn't all agree to get in this mess and we certainly won't all agree on a solution. Rich and poor alike will both moan however the rich will be able to moan from the comfort of their own homes.

In 1789 they had a solution to the greedy minority problem. And funnily enough they did not all agree that that was the best solution......
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Thu 13 Jul 2006, 10:51:25

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', 'T')he only problem I have with this statement is you're ignoring the fact that its everyones problem. So everybody has to agree on a solution.


We didn't all agree to get in this mess and we certainly won't all agree on a solution. Rich and poor alike will both moan however the rich will be able to moan from the comfort of their own homes.

In 1789 they had a solution to the greedy minority problem. And funnily enough they did not all agree that that was the best solution......


Are you refering to the murder of innocent people during the French Revolution?

Is that the solution that you are proposing?

:?
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby Liamj » Fri 14 Jul 2006, 09:25:56

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Are you refering to the murder of innocent people during the French Revolution?
Is that the solution that you are proposing?
:?


Define 'innocent', please.
Was Marie Antoinette ("let them eat cake") innocent? What about her kids? Her doormen? Guilt and punishment can hinge on fine points of philospohy, but not if haven't eaten a solid meal in three months and your last living child just died of typhoid.
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Fri 14 Jul 2006, 14:19:29

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Liamj', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', '
')Are you refering to the murder of innocent people during the French Revolution?
Is that the solution that you are proposing?
:?


Define 'innocent', please.
Was Marie Antoinette ("let them eat cake") innocent? What about her kids? Her doormen? Guilt and punishment can hinge on fine points of philospohy, but not if haven't eaten a solid meal in three months and your last living child just died of typhoid.


I am fully aware of the fact that people are willing to kill the rich if they themselves are poor and starving.

I just don't accept that as a fair policy, especially considering how low the "rich" bar may be set.
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby 128shot » Sat 15 Jul 2006, 01:06:03

Funny thing about the French REvolution is that if the French would have adopted the potatoe (ironically a potatoe product-the french fry-bears their name) then there wouldn't have been much of a famine


I do hope you all read about the little ice age...
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby rogerhb » Sat 15 Jul 2006, 01:31:05

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', 'F')unny thing about the French REvolution is that if the French would have adopted the potatoe then there wouldn't have been much of a famine.


I wonder if the Irish would agree.
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby rogerhb » Sat 15 Jul 2006, 01:33:19

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Tyler_JC', 'I')s that the solution that you are proposing?


Reminding people what happened in history is not the same as proposing a repetition, however ignoring history does cause rhymes.
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby 128shot » Sat 15 Jul 2006, 01:49:22

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rogerhb', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', 'F')unny thing about the French REvolution is that if the French would have adopted the potatoe then there wouldn't have been much of a famine.


I wonder if the Irish would agree.



If only they would have grown more than one type of potatoe.....


This is true. The main problem with the Irish Famine was that it was caused by relying too much on one thing!


If anything, this should ring near and dear about peak oil hahaha...
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby rogerhb » Sat 15 Jul 2006, 01:58:59

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', 'I')f only they would have grown more than one type of potatoe.....


You went to the same school as Dan Quayle?
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Re: Fair Tax - Replace Income Tax with Sales Tax? Yes, or No

Unread postby smallpoxgirl » Sat 15 Jul 2006, 02:20:08

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('128shot', 'T')his is true. The main problem with the Irish Famine was that it was caused by relying too much on one thing!


Sorry to shoot you down, but that's bull crap. The Irish were growing quite a diverse variety of foods. The English landlords were then taking that food and exporting it back to England. Only the potatoes were considered so lowly that the Irish were allowed to eat them. Ireland throughout the "famine" grew more than enough food to feed itself. The food was sent to England and the Irish starved. In fact there is good evidence that the system of only allowing Irish to keep the potatoes arose because the English landlords were scheming on how to reduce the Irish population and realized that if they were limited to one crop, that crop would eventually fail. The so called famine is better described by the 20th century word genocide.
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