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Don't Blame The Baby Boomers...

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: Don't Blame The Baby Boomers...

Unread postby DesertBear2 » Sun 02 Jul 2006, 00:55:37

This whole <b>Baby Boomer</b> title is just annoying...after all, it was just concocted by some popular magazine or attention seeking academic. This is just more simple-minded thinking which is the hallmark of our grand new media culture which seems to function on an endless series of manipulative images.

So, exactly how do you put an upper-middleclass white male born in 1946 in Boston and a black female who was born in 1962 in east Los Angeles in the same group? How about the son of a KKKer who was born in 1948 in Selma, Alabama? What about the daughter of a wheat farmer who was born in North Dakota in 1960? Even with extreme regional, cultural, and economic differences, they are all "baby boomers" but otherwise have exactly nothing in common.

The right-wing talk shows have fulfilled their function of building conservative power by setting up intense hatreds between different groups of Americans ie conservatives vs liberals (their definition), gen Xers vs Baby Boomers etc. And a lot of it has to do with the "conservative" campaign to discredit all the values of the 1960s. And the folks who are orchestrating this campaign ie Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, and Michael Savage happen to be baby boomers. And don't forget George Bush, Bill Frist, and Newt Gingrich are boomers too.

It seems to me that every so-called "generation" of Americans have indulged in the materialistic orgy during the 20th century- WW1 generation, WW2 generation, Baby Boomers, Gen X, Gen Y. We have all been part of the Great American Party .....the one fueled by lots and lots of cheap oil.

The Great American Party....soon to run out of gas.
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Re: Don't Blame The Baby Boomers...

Unread postby rwwff » Sun 02 Jul 2006, 00:59:51

All good points, but a question lurks in my brain... Why should we care to blame anyone? I mean, really, whats the point?
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Re: Don't Blame The Baby Boomers...

Unread postby RacerJace » Sun 02 Jul 2006, 04:22:59

Maybe it's not a question of who's to blame but more like who was/was not reponsible for the predicament we're in. Who had the responsibility to set policy that considered the future of all generations irrespective of colour, creed or culture? Who is elected to lead a nation's government for the good of the people? You might be drawing a sigh or ho hum thought of 'oh yeah.. the governement.. lets blame the government as usual'. But the government, whilst being totally manipulative and shortshighted on the needs of the common people and spending the real efforts on tipping the prosperity towards the rich and wealthy, is elected by the people.

So what's the anwser...?

In a perfect world I'd simply say elect a leadership that can demonstrate true values in long term policy making and planning for a sustainable future not just the candidate with the shaprest wit and comeback line or boldest promise to make good in his/her term. However the fact that Bush is running the USA and Howard is running Australia means there is either too much corruption or too many people that are too stupid to care, or most probably both.

Perhaps it is like the late 60's all over again. The USA and others are engaged in a war they can't win and that no one wants. There are right wing governements controlling the masses with fear and promises of security against a hidden enemy and the economy is heading full-on into a highly unstable condition that could make 1971 look like a party. Time to get out the tie-die, polyester shirts and insence, march those protest marches and make love not war huh...! 8O

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Re: Don't Blame The Baby Boomers...

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 02 Jul 2006, 08:59:40

All I can say is; we had a chance during the Carter Administration, but I guess Regan's Administration changed all that in a heart-beat. Seems to me, we mostly get either Texas oilman in office or Massachusetts blue bloods. Ok, so Carter was a peanut farmer.
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Re: Don't Blame The Baby Boomers...

Unread postby rwwff » Sun 02 Jul 2006, 12:08:51

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RacerJace', 'I')n a perfect world I'd simply say elect a leadership that can demonstrate true values in long term policy making

If everyone's "true values" were the same, it would be one thing; but they aren't. To make matters worse, each side of the argument has trapped themselves by characterizing the values of the other as immoral, repugnant, or just plain ignorant. On the left, they say the right is controlling people with fear; on the right they say the left is engaging in class and cultural warfare. Far be it for someone on the left to say that a right winger is honestly and legitimately concerned about national security and the safety and prosperity of all Americans. Far be it for someone on the right to say that a left winger is honestly and legitimately concerned about social justice and equality.

Instead, we have this winner take all approach where the side opposite is considered the epitome of evil and corruption; lacking any redeeming or legitimate claim to virtue.

The fact that Bush and Howard are running things should inform the left that perhaps they need to rethink some of their social engineering programs, because there certainly aren't enough rich people to elect presidents and prime ministers. The left has pushed quiet, consciencious people to far; so far that they will happily and knowingly vote against their economic interests, in order to preserve and protect their social interests. If the left is unwilling to learn this lesson; they are doomed to many more years of failure.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')erhaps it is like the late 60's all over again. The USA and others are engaged in a war they can't win and that no one wants.

Always with the left, desperately looking to the past. Landscape's changed; what worked then, will not work now. The power of the left to embarrass or shame socially conservative people into either not voting, or voting with the left was lost the moment they placed the interests of gays and gun-banners, above the interests of unionization and middle class workers. Choices have consequences. Choose to change, or choose to lose.

As to the war, put forward a presidential candidate who promises and intends to withdraw all troops from Iraq, and lets see what the vote really is in '08. I'd love to see that question put to the American people (regardless of the result), in the context of their vote actually causing policy.
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Re: Don't Blame The Baby Boomers...

Unread postby Heineken » Sun 02 Jul 2006, 13:58:06

The important point is that in the 1960s and early to mid-1970s the Boomers had an opportunity to effect real change that could have obviated the current disastrous mess. A major groundswell for meaningful reform in US social, economic, political, and environmental policies was in motion. My God, you had students taking over university administration offices and demanding reform---people cared that much.

Then what happened? Microsoft. Legions of former hippies transmogrifying into consumerist nerds with silly black spectacles. The Boomers becoming captivated by technology and business and their alluring but ultimately empty promises. The Big Chill.
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Re: Don't Blame The Baby Boomers...

Unread postby ubercynicmeister » Sun 02 Jul 2006, 20:01:02

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PenultimateManStanding', 'G')ood points, uber, but is one man really to blame?


No, that was not my point: Winston Churchill was simply trying to save the British Navy some money, but his decision was the most profound as it had huge Unintended Consequences, namely Peak Oil.

In that sense we're all to "blame", both for simply not being inquisitive about the who's, the where's, the why's and the what's of our present Society.

My point is that there's an awful lot of "well, it must be the Baby Boomers who are to blame for this (etc etc)". It is not: the decisions were made back when the Baby Boomers were infants or even before, when the Baby Boomers's parents were infants.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'H')ow can we look at this objectively? The war in Viet Nam was to resist Stalin and Pol Pot, in the final analysis.


No, that's what you've been taught to believe. The Viet Nam War was the result of the idiotic French being given an easily avoided flogging by the Nazis in the Second World War. As a result of France's humiliating capitulation, Japan demanded that the Vichy Govt (nominally their "allies") hand over stewardship of then Indo-China to Japan, who proceeded to treat the in-country French as brutally as they treated the Vitenamese.

Uncle Ho Chi Minh was one of the few to stand up to the Japanese (the French certainly did not), and the CIA's forerunner supplied Ho Chi Minh with arms, training and communications all throughout the Second World War. Indeed, we now know that Ho Chi Minh was so impressed with the US that he wanted to frame the Post World War's Vietnam's Consitution on the US Consitution (obviously adapted for language differences).

You see, Ho Chi Minh remembered the promise given by the Allies in 1942 that if any of the former Colonies (now occupied by Axis forces) stood up to the Axis forces, they'd be granted independance in the Post War period. This was part of the reason why Hi Chi Minh fought on the US' side, against Japan. This 1942 promise was promptly forgotten Post 1945.

Also, part of the reason was that Viet Nam and China have traditional enmity and they have gone to war in recent times (after the Viet Nam war was over) over their border.

At the end of the Second World War, then President Truman created the CIA, and they were supposed to handle the details of the Post War SE Asian "affairs". They collectively didn't.

Ho Chi Minh sent letter after letter begging the US' help in securing Viet Nam's Independance. The CIA did not even pass them on. The whole of the Viet Nam war need never have been, if only the CIA had done it's damn job.

But it didn't.

Ho Chi Minh was offered help by the Soviets (who had fallen out with the Chinese) against the French and Ho Chi Minh took the offer up.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')That was the paradigm of the last century. Pol Pot got to do his thing because of American lack of resolve.


Lack of American resolve? Heck, Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge (the word Khmer and the word "kharma" are closely related: both mean "fate") were supported by the CIA, because they were against the Vietnamese army! Why the heck d'you think Pol Pot committed governmental suicide by invading Viet Nam? The US wanted them to, to carry on the Viet Nam war by proxy!

The Chinese supported Pol Pot, too, so they had money coming from the Capitalists AND the Communists. For the same reason that the CIA supported them: they were against the Vietnamese.

Of course, the Vietnamese beat the Khmer Rouge hollow, so the US found itself supporting another losing, utterly bloodthirty regime of despots. The lesson for China was learnt, but the CIA never learnt.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')If we had stood firm that never would have happened. But Americans are decadent and fun loving, as Hitler and Stalin and Bin Laden have noted.


Decadent and fun-loving? Mebbe. Tricked into the Ultimate Honey-Trap might be a better way of putting it. Speaking of which, I presume you knew about the South Vietnamese govt's habits of taking the deadbodies of the GI's and removing their internal organs, then stuffing the hollowed-out corpse with drugs and importing it into the US?

The real irony is that the Counter Culture's drugged out hippies were being supplied with "hash" (etc) from the hated South Vietnamese and the transport medium was the even more hated American "Military Industrial Complex".

Most Aussies know about it. It seems an awful lot of Americans don't.

Like I said above: tricked into the Ultimate Honey Trap.
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Re: Don't Blame The Baby Boomers...

Unread postby ubercynicmeister » Sun 02 Jul 2006, 20:19:38

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RacerJace', 'H')owever the fact that Bush is running the USA and Howard is running Australia means there is either too much corruption or too many people that are too stupid to care, or most probably both.


Racer, you take the too obvious view. You must remember the traditional Australian line about the definition of a hung Parliament?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Hung Parliament: when fear and loathing of the government is finely balanced with distrust and detestation of the opposition;

Apathy: the inevitable reaction of voters asked to choose between the obviously inexperienced and the obviously incompetent;

Election Campaign: A high-cost low quality soapie lasting some weeks, occasionally months, where the top politicians demonstrate their immense respect for the electorate by a series of media stunts and undeliverable patronising pork-barrel promises; alternatively defined as a frantic attempt by the desperate to inspire the apathetic with the unbelievable.


C'mon, you seriously haven't heard those before? They are the results of years of being worn down to a frazzle by the pollies who really don't give a Tinker's Cuss about the Electorate, except when election season comes around, and the smell of fear is obvious.

And you wonder why the darn voters choose someone like Jack Boot Johnny or "what day is it" Dubbya?

What's the alternative?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')bstain: done by those who do not have the option of emigrating during election season and who realise the "choice" they have is really no choice whatsoever
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Re: Don't Blame The Baby Boomers...

Unread postby RacerJace » Mon 03 Jul 2006, 07:16:23

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('ubercynicmeister', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RacerJace', 'H')owever the fact that Bush is running the USA and Howard is running Australia means there is either too much corruption or too many people that are too stupid to care, or most probably both.


Racer, you take the too obvious view. You must remember the traditional Australian line about the definition of a hung Parliament?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Hung Parliament: when fear and loathing of the government is finely balanced with distrust and detestation of the opposition;

Apathy: the inevitable reaction of voters asked to choose between the obviously inexperienced and the obviously incompetent;

Election Campaign: A high-cost low quality soapie lasting some weeks, occasionally months, where the top politicians demonstrate their immense respect for the electorate by a series of media stunts and undeliverable patronising pork-barrel promises; alternatively defined as a frantic attempt by the desperate to inspire the apathetic with the unbelievable.


C'mon, you seriously haven't heard those before? They are the results of years of being worn down to a frazzle by the pollies who really don't give a Tinker's Cuss about the Electorate, except when election season comes around, and the smell of fear is obvious.

And you wonder why the darn voters choose someone like Jack Boot Johnny or "what day is it" Dubbya?

What's the alternative?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')bstain: done by those who do not have the option of emigrating during election season and who realise the "choice" they have is really no choice whatsoever


Excuse me Uberdood.. but I am very familiar with the "hung parliament" concept. I used to vote for the Liberals when I was still under the influnece of my fathers devotion to the National Party, with the belief they would help support the needs of the farmers (my father, a man of the land himself). My view was that capitalisim was good for economic progress but that was before I grew up and got less stupid.

In the last two elections I felt dispare for what we were headed towards when Howard got in... and doubly so the second time. I voted for The Greens fully knowing that they didn't have the credability for solid economic policy but they were/are the clear lesser of evils.

So my choice was based on the fact that we are probably screwed economically anyway but there is no point continuing to screw the environment as well, so I voted for a bunch of centre lefties that so far have been the only ones able to demonstrate that a sustainable long term plan is essential even if it is at the detrement of the economy 'as we know it'. At least they do a good job of trying to keep the other bastards honest.

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