[eastbay]

RG73,

It is not for the Iraqi resistance to end their resistance, it is for the US military to end their occupation.

It is very difficult for those of us sitting safely in our homes to even contemplate what can bring those resisting the occupation to such acts of barbarity.

But there is no arguing the fact that the root cause of the resistance and their increasing anger is the US occupation.

[eric_b]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eric_b', 'A')nd it's now becomming evident (obvious actually) that Saddam
was much more adept at holding the many factions in Iraq
together than the US will ever be.

[RdSnt]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Fergus', 'T')ouchy subjext. I also agree were only there for 1 reason. Secure the oil fields. I dont know if the US will go all out and just take over the governments that hold oil, but I wager the US will engage Iran in a military conflict next, Then Venezuela or Russia????

Right or wrong, I dont know, I am not qualified for that. But I do think we have embarked on a path we can no longer turn around on. Wether we started it or not, the sleeping dog's now awake and if we dont fight there, its only a matter of time till that dog comes here and continues the jihad. While this is an oil war for us, it is survival for the jihadists and they are complelled to convert us or kill us. Its not that easy for them to just stop. Research the ideology behind the fanaticism. Its a deadly mandate laced with hate, murder and self importance.

Wether one wants this war or not, I think we have little choice left. We have to fight it till the bitter end. Can you imagine a weakened USA with Iran and Russia coupled with China's manpower all being pissed at the USA. We may have just painted our collective selves into a perverbial corner. At this point, we have to maintain a military superiority (or at least be equal in power) to the rest of the world. The bully has finally pissed off the whole school and they are ganging up on us. (Thats the way I see it anyways).

[ohanian]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FairMaiden', '
')
I studied Islam for a VERY brief period but Jihad does NOT mean you convert or kill opposition. It means a "struggle" of faith which could be internal or external (the external could be military action). This is not a jihad...this is a country under occupation and attack. ANY country - whether it be dominated by Islamic or Christian religions - would have individuals who would fight for their freedom and their country should they find themselves under attack and occupation.

Think about it - who do you think they are trying to convert? The soldiers??

[grabby]

War is hell.
Peak oil is worse. What comes around goews around.

[donshan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('grabby', 'W')ar is hell.
.

[NiKfUrY69]

Lotsa pissy posts,

BUT I think we can all agree that this ain't the way it needs to be going. Whatever the reasons.

SO - how is the withdrawal to be implemented.

Impeachment ain't happenin'. Bet on that.

As long as politicians have ve$ted intere$t$ in companies making defense millions, how will they vote to withdraw?

Kinda like the gay marriage amendment - it hasn't got a chance of getting passed and they will play up their part in the proposal and vote.

At the end of the day - it still fails, troops are still there.

Realistic solutions wanted.... NiK

[NiKfUrY69]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NiKfUrY69', 'A')s long as politicians have ve$ted intere$t$ in companies making defense millions, how will they vote to withdraw?

Kinda like the gay marriage amendment - it hasn't got a chance of getting passed and they will play up their part in the proposal and vote.

At the end of the day - it still fails, troops are still there.

[SoothSayer]

So what happens if we (the UK & the US) pull out?

That could mean:
- our political system is weakened
- a left-wing US government may take over
- our troops will be severely demoralised
- our people will feel cheated in various ways
- outside countries will view us as weak powers
- we lose a foothold in an oil rich area
- radical Islam will seize Iraq and probably more will die per day than at present
- we would probably lose our influence in Saudi Arabia too.

To summarise: We will end up separated from the oil areas, with a weak government and a dissillusioned army & populace. The US & UK probably could not mount a similar operation ever again. Pulling out could significantly threaten out future in the West.

Yep. Let's pull our troops out tomorrow. Might as well swallow cyanide whilst we are at it.

[donshan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NiKfUrY69', '
')
Realistic solutions wanted.... NiK

[NiKfUrY69]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', 'S')o what happens if we (the UK & the US) pull out?

That could mean:
- our political system is weakened
- a left-wing US government may take over
- our troops will be severely demoralised
- our people will feel cheated in various ways
- outside countries will view us as weak powers
- we lose a foothold in an oil rich area
- radical Islam will seize Iraq and probably more will die per day than at present
- we would probably lose our influence in Saudi Arabia too.

[NiKfUrY69]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('donshan', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NiKfUrY69', '
')
Realistic solutions wanted.... NiK

[NiKfUrY69]

[quote="uNkNowN ElEmEnt]$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's ran by major political parties (the rich), that are paid off by mega corps/lobbyists (more rich), that ruin the average citizen (the poor & declining middle class) by exporting their jobs, holding down wages, leave them hanging in national disasters and force them to fight for corporate resources in other countries.

Probably the same for every one here, just too blind to notice or in denial.

[donshan]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', 'S')o what happens if we (the UK & the US) pull out?

That could mean:
- our political system is weakened
- a left-wing US government may take over
- our troops will be severely demoralised
- our people will feel cheated in various ways
- outside countries will view us as weak powers
- we lose a foothold in an oil rich area
- radical Islam will seize Iraq and probably more will die per day than at present
- we would probably lose our influence in Saudi Arabia too.

To summarise: We will end up separated from the oil areas, with a weak government and a dissillusioned army & populace. The US & UK probably could not mount a similar operation ever again. Pulling out could significantly threaten out future in the West.

Yep. Let's pull our troops out tomorrow. Might as well swallow cyanide whilst we are at it.

[aflurry]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('SoothSayer', '[')b]Maybe this attitude of valuing ourselves more than others is part of why.

I value myself & my family & my friends and possibly my neighbours more than others.

I would be worried if anyone expressed any different opinion about themselves or their family.

[SoothSayer]

Thanks for your post donshan.

Having worked for some years for a large high tech company in a very Moslem area of a British city I have become 100% convinced that a "Clash of Civilisations" is unavoidable.

There has been - and still is - too much appeasement to Moslems in the West.

In the UK we have had MUCH more media coverage of the Brazilian who was accidentally shot, and of attempts to "bond" with the Moslem community than we have had of the poor people blown to pieces in the London attacks.

One UK city police chief even made all his officers wear Moslem ribbons after the bombings to show "community spirit".

In my opinion we are in a slow motion war with Islam and retreat of any sort will be regarded as weakness.

Losing Iraq (even if the original invasion was stupid) will simply accelerate the pace of global Islamification.

It's time to play hard ball - especially as energy resources fade - or will we simply lose the game.

The Islamic hardliners must be laughing at all the Chomsky style introspection going on in the USA at the moment. They know that the tough America of old is rotting from within.

[untothislast]

Would anyone like to hazard a guess at how much the US has spent - cumulatively - on armaments, R&D and military campaigns since, say, 1945?*

Whatever figure you can come up with, reflect that the merest fraction of that expenditure - expressed in the form of a doctrine of benevolent goodwill - might have done so much to reinvigorate and win over those parts of the world currently serving as recruiting grounds for terrorist organisations. Ultimately, the US' jackboot diplomacy will be its own ultimate undoing. The only (temporary) winners being scum like Halliburton.

(Hint: $455bn - in 2004 alone)

[uNkNowN ElEmEnt]

I hate to break it to you, but you don't have a democracy. IN the democracy first described by socrates the people who are elected are done so "by the people". You don't you have a select group of people or the "party" chooses a couple different people and they elect one of those to be the candidate for the party.

then the parties put their puppet up before the people so that they can pretend that die bold machine don't select the winner or the next president of the US. See you don't get to elect the best person for the job, you get to pretend to pick one of the people they've chosen for you.

In a democracy people throw their hats in the ring and the nation chooses among these people. there is no pre selection.

I know this will really piss you guys off but Cuba is actually closer to a "real" democracy than you people are. they have regional elections and these people are the contenders for the national presidency. CAstro has been democratically elected every time. Ha doesn't that jsut piss you off? shows you just how much truth gets through the USA propaganda.

Yeah, we know you are told he's a dictator, but that is just what they want you to think. same with chavez, they totally want you to think he's a totalitarian who took power illegally. but he didn't. see you guys may be brain washed but the rest of us know better.

[NiKfUrY69]

Sssshhh - don't tell anyone, but its "Officially" a republic.

But yeah, "the people" are hosed no matter what its called.

As for any president for life ............ yeah, democracy.

Like when Jeb Bush gets the presidency.

* Yawn *

Did we ever come up with a way to bring the troops home?

Later - NiK