[DesertBear2]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Revi', 'W')hen the housing bubble pops there will be a lot of people out on the street or doubled up with relatives. It's already hard to make it. Now imagine twice as many people without jobs and houses.

[jdmartin]

Pops, as usual, has one of the best replies on this thread.

It's amusing to me to read about all the people who are going to save their income and not be gluttonous pigs so as to survive the coming shitstorm, and revel in the disgust that is their friends, neighbors, and colleagues.

To that, I say: what do you do for a living?

All of us are interconnected. It is only the continued spending of your fellow greedy pigs that allows you to even have a job that provides an income that you can squirrel away. Otherwise, boiled down to the lowest common denominator, we're all out there scrounging for roots and berries and maybe swapping out some labor in order to stay alive. In other words, there's no economy. Without people buying all the useless shit everyone loves to rail against, there's no economy.

Now, that's not to say that the things we buy to keep the economy running couldn't be better - whether that means quality, humanity, etc. For example: I buy (almost) 100% of my food from organic growers or organic companies. Aside from the fact that I consider it safer for me, and better quality, it supports the type of people that I want to support. However, irrespective of what I'm spending my money on, if I didn't spend it than someone else wouldn't have it. We can't all disengage from the economy. You can take almost any job, remove the economic system around it, and it will pay nothing.

Yes, the middle class is disappearing. Yes, some of it is their fault. But get real. Every generation loves to spout off how "my grandfather's generation were hard working, saving, didn't buy anything they didn't need". It's bullshit. That fuzzy-eared black and white tv that sounds so disadvantaged today was the Ipod of the 50's. Same thing goes for vacuum cleaners, dishwashers, toasters, etc. - things that we would consider necessities today, but that were absolute luxuries then. ANY car was a luxury in the 50's, because most places had acceptable public transportation and most people lived within distance of it.

You can look around, point your fingers in disgust and proclaim how piggish everyone else is all you want. The fact of the matter is that they and their brethren allow you to continue to work for currency that you can use to buy your bunkers, self sufficient land, or products that you're going to use to stave off disaster.

[swingbolder]

I'm late to this thread (I had to stay away from the PO boards for awhile, too depressing) but here's my 2 bits:

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')ursing is here to stay i'll give you that one. The other ones are rapidly disappearing with wages and benefits being pushed lower because of the the endless supply of labor competing for the remaining skilled jobs.

[jdmartin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne of the reasons JFK enacted the New Deal

[swingbolder]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')ne of the reasons JFK enacted the New Deal

[jdmartin]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')here are you located? When you say you can build a house for $60-70 per square foot, do you mean that is what you would pay a contractor, or do you mean that you would contribute to the labor?

I like the Tumbleweed houses bc they are mobile. You can plop one in a relative's backyard and live there if they will let you. . .you are not limited geographically.

Also, I never said they were a solution for the poor. We were talking about the middle class.

[Revi]

I've noticed a lot of infill in town, and lots of houses that seem perfectly fine languishing on the market out of town. Maybe there is a shift happening. People are moving back near their work. Economics works relentlessly. Every week that you have to fill that SUV just to drag the kid to soccer practice eats another hundred dollar bill out of the budget. Eventually it all doesn't add up. The Dodge Durango goes back to the dealer and the house goes up for sale. It's happening everywhere.

A family in our town thought it was doing so well that they bought two hummers. The big ones, not the H3. They went bankrupt and the bank got it all. It all looked good right up until the repo man came.

A smaller and more insidious version of this is happening to all of us middle class people. I just noticed that our income isn't matching with the outflow. We reigned in the spending, and the income now matches expenditures, but money's still too tight to mention. We have to buy oil for next year, and I got a deal, but it's still almost 50 cents more than last year. Ouch! There went the summer vacation!

[Leanan]

Bankruptcy filings up despite reforms

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '[')b]Increase comes even though more stringent standards were adopted in October; lenders watch closely.

A new U.S. law to deter American consumers from seeking bankruptcy protection made filings plunge to a 20-year low in the first quarter of 2006, but a rapid rise in new cases since then raises questions about whether the law is working as expected.

[Zardoz]

The plight of the American middle class is getting a lot of play in the media. Everybody knows what's going on:

[url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13447899/]U.S. losing its middle-class neighborhoods -
Metro areas show widening gap between rich and poor sections[/url]

[url=http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/060626/26middle.htm]Anxiety Attack -
The economy hums, but a wary middle class feels the dual burdens of uncertainty and risk[/url]

Living paycheck-to-paycheck really sucks, and a huge percentage of the U.S. population does that now.

[Zardoz]

The end of a dream

More broadly, many workers aren't facing the fact that coming changes mean their life in retirement will be radically different from the lives of today's retirees. "The years 1965 to 1999 were the closest thing to economic golden years ever seen by this nation for those moving into retirement," says EBRI chief Dallas Salisbury, "and they will likely never be matched again for the bulk of the population unless savings behavior changes radically." Which it shows no signs of doing. The implications could include a nasty political standoff as growing blocs of aging voters demand to be taken care of - Social Security aside.

It's going to get really ugly.

[WildRose]

To an extent, I agree that we, the middle class, have collectively created the difficult situation we find ourselves in. In central Alberta, many people earn high incomes and could be quite comfortable with smaller homes and cars, etc., but still they rush out to own the largest home they can possibly qualify for. Even very young couples fall into this trap, carrying huge mortgages, loans for new furniture and appliances, all the toys for themselves and their children.

However, there are many people, my family included, who are at the lower end of the middle class and, realizing our financial limits, have purchased a very modest home and do not have a lot of luxuries. Our mortgage is small, but we still struggle because of so many other expenses. Between utility costs, property taxes, income tax, car insurance, home insurance, life insurance, and the cost of raising three teenagers we have little to spare. In the last couple of years, despite "cost-of-living" raises in our incomes, we have seen our expendable income shrink and cannot save money. Most of the people we know are in the same situation.

We do our best for our family. Our children understand that bills are high and we have a budget. Perhaps our kids will be better prepared to deal with less than some others will be.

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('swingbolder', 'I') am a first-year nursing student. There is a huge demand for nurses, yet not enough slots in nursing schools to meet the demand hence many schools have a two-year or so waiting list. There aren't enuf slots bc there aren't enough nursings professors. There aren't enough nursing professors bc they are not paid that much $$, they make less than nurses in fact. So the US is facing this huge nursing shortage that is only going to get bigger as the boomers retire.

So instead of investing in nursing education, our govt's solution to this is to increase the number of foreign nurses who are allowed to work here. . . at lower wages, of course. So while nursing can't be outsourced, it is being INSOURCED. . . to the benefit of the corporate hospitals. Yet another middle-class career becoming the victim of the global economy.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('swingbolder', '.')..There is a huge demand for nurses, yet not enough slots in nursing schools...

[strider3700]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '
')
Not at all. This is right on topic. This insidious kind of outsourcing is a classic example of the crap that's going on that is making life tougher and tougher for the middle class.

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('strider3700', '.')..we can't just keep everyone employed doing useless crap

[lpetrich]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('jdmartin', 'I')t's amusing to me to read about all the people who are going to save their income and not be gluttonous pigs so as to survive the coming shitstorm, and revel in the disgust that is their friends, neighbors, and colleagues.

To that, I say: what do you do for a living?

All of us are interconnected. It is only the continued spending of your fellow greedy pigs that allows you to even have a job that provides an income that you can squirrel away. Otherwise, boiled down to the lowest common denominator, we're all out there scrounging for roots and berries and maybe swapping out some labor in order to stay alive. In other words, there's no economy. Without people buying all the useless shit everyone loves to rail against, there's no economy.

[vision-master]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'M')ore broadly, many workers aren't facing the fact that coming changes mean their life in retirement will be radically different from the lives of today's retirees. "The years 1965 to 1999 were the closest thing to economic golden years ever seen by this nation for those moving into retirement," says EBRI chief Dallas Salisbury, "and they will likely never be matched again for the bulk of the population unless savings behavior changes radically." Which it shows no signs of doing. The implications could include a nasty political standoff as growing blocs of aging voters demand to be taken care of - Social Security aside.

[strider3700]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Zardoz', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('strider3700', '.')..we can't just keep everyone employed doing useless crap

[Revi]

Us Peakers knew this was coming. We know why everything costs more and we're paid in the same paper that we got five years ago. We know that when the government says that there's no inflation that it's lies. Imagine that you are Joe Sixpack. You live in suburbia, surrounded by the boat you are still making payments on and the SUVs you drive over 100 miles every day. You walk in to the Mc Mansion that costs 3 times more to heat and cool than it did when you bought it on an adjustable rate mortgage. You watch Fox News and they tell you lies all day. You go to the extra large fridge where you keep all that food that costs so much more.

You don't know why, but you're pissed off. You had to take out home equity loans just to heat the house last winter. That guy you elected thinking subconciously that he would keep gas prices down isn't doing it. You are in a world of trouble. And you don't know how to avoid it. You don't know what's wrong. You work your job, but the money doesn't match the bills. What's wrong?

[SoothSayer]

It's going to get really ugly.

It certainly will in the UK.

The government has destroyed the private pensions sector through huge taxes on the industry.

Government workers get guaranteed index linked pensions and can retire early ... but the private sector will have to retire in their late 60s ... and will get a tiny non-index linked pension.

The most extreme case is say a full-time fireman who has so much spare working time he usually runs a decorating or building business "on the side" ... and who can retire at 48.

However a quarry worker (the most dangerous industry) is expected to work to 65 or longer and then get a crap pension.

UK property taxes go up a huge amount each year ... mainly due to the local councils having to pay the pensions of ex-staff.

I can envisage a time in the future where 2-in-3 old people live in total poverty or have to work until they die whilst the (younger) retired government workers have nice cars & go on foreign holidays each year.

Old people can get angry too ... and I doubt that they will be happy when this retirement them-and-us situation becomes obvious.

It's staring to feel like we live in the old Soviet Union ... one lifestyle for the government & apparatchiks ... and another shabbier lifestyle for the rest.