by Free » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 16:38:56
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('rwwff', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', 'C')ut your losses and accept that you lost the occupation of Iraq. Sooner or later you will have to do it anyway, and the longer it takes, the costlier the defeat will be.
Only depends on what one considers victory or defeat. What did you think an Iraq victory would look like?
I think we've achieved pretty much what the powers that be expected. We've got strong, permanent bases, declining casualties, and security in knowing that oil from the region will be traded in US dollars.
What more could you ask for.
It all comes down to cost/revenue.
Iraqi oil revenues are disappointing so far. Dollar denomination in Iraq will help nothing if the other big producers switch at some point, which is not unlikely.
And for how long do you think US soldiers will be willing to let get themselves slaughtered and maimed for their little pay?
Will the US citizens accept a draft?
Will it be possible to replace big parts of the US army with highly paid mercenaries?
"Democracy means the opportunity to be everyone's slave."
Karl Kraus
by ashurbanipal » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 16:40:41
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f you live in a despotically controlled country - too bad. Either overthrow the bastards or live with it. You either earn your freedom or you deserve your slavery.
It is not the job of my country or its troops or children to come pull you out of the slavery that you lack the balls to fix for your self.
Earn your democracy - we did.
Just to note that I agree--which means that we have absolutely NO reason to be there at all.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he Middle East may have BEEN the cradle of civilization, but they have not progressed past the “Terrible Twos” of toddler hood since. They would not appreciate Democracy if Allah shoved it into their turbans.
But this is just silly. They have a different culture, a different civilization. But saying that
progress must necessarily mimic
our progress is obviously flawed.
In a world that is not whole, you have got to fight just to keep your soul.
-Ben Harper-
by NiKfUrY69 » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 17:05:40
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'G')ot any pix of the unarmed, captured, tortured, hacked up American soldiers?
Of course not.
Any body want to guess what would have happened to female soldiers?
Of course not.
"Holyier than thou" folks can bite me - NiK
NO I don't have any pictures of the hacked up American soldiers. But then I didn't even have the pictures I posted of the blown up Iraquis. I just googled them, its easy enough.
We don't have to guess what happens to female soldiers, its happened, what is your point?
If you invade a country and blow them up you have to expect that it will piss them off and they will start fighting back. THAT is war. You bought it. Literally. so bite that.
I didn't invade any country (woulda been more dead). The US government did. If you are stupid enough to believe America is run
by the people - well, you're stupid. So are any Americans that think such.
It's ran by major political parties (
the rich), that are paid off by mega corps/lobbyists (
more rich), that ruin the average citizen (
the poor & declining middle class) by exporting their jobs, holding down wages, leave them hanging in national disasters and force them to fight for corporate resources in other countries.
Probably the same for every one here, just too blind to notice or in denial.
And yeah. I think we should leave. Not because we're defeated. We could kick the ass of the whole Middle East if we weren't so pansy assed about PC rules.
We should leave 'cause we shouldn't have come. Earn your own democracy with your own blood - is my motto.
But it won't happen as long as a profit is being made for the poli-corps-rich.
Meanwhile the average citizen dies for what??
Disgusted - NiK
by ashurbanipal » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 17:11:26
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'U')mm, what did you think war casualties were supposed to look like?
Good question. I would say they should look like something we ought to be really careful about ever bringing into the world again. I would say they ought to look like something that anyone should care enough about to make sure that they are created only in the most extreme of circumstances, when all other avenues of action are closed and there is no other choice.
In a world that is not whole, you have got to fight just to keep your soul.
-Ben Harper-
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by rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 17:12:56
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Free', '
')It all comes down to cost/revenue.
Iraqi oil revenues are disappointing so far. Dollar denomination in Iraq will help nothing if the other big producers switch at some point, which is not unlikely.
You have to also roll into that cost, the damage that would be done to the economy if OPEC dropped the dollar and picked up the Euro. This really can't be overstated.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', '
')And for how long do you think US soldiers will be willing to let get themselves slaughtered and maimed for their little pay?
Casualties are fairly low, so you have to look at it through the lense of human nature. "It won't happen to me" and "Payback time for what you guys did to my best friend's buddy." I do support hefty pay raises. The idea that some twit bureacrat in EPA earns more than a soldier in Iraq is annoying.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ill the US citizens accept a draft?
They always have in the past; though they've loved making a rucous about it. Regardless, I think a draft is completely unnecessary and not particularly helpful. Money is better spent contracting out as many "tail" activities as possible.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')ill it be possible to replace big parts of the US army with highly paid mercenaries?
by uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 17:24:30
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') didn't invade any country (woulda been more dead).
What a typical American attitude.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')The US government did. If you are stupid enough to believe America is run
by the people - well, you're stupid. So are any Americans that think such.
Anyone who has any idea who the Diebol machine company is, knows better. Which I suspect is pretty much any Democrat down there.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t's ran by major political parties (
the rich), that are paid off by mega corps/lobbyists (
more rich), that ruin the average citizen (
the poor & declining middle class) by exporting their jobs, holding down wages, leave them hanging in national disasters and force them to fight for corporate resources in other countries.
Probably the same for every one here, just too blind to notice or in denial.
Are you sure which web forum you are on? there are very few here that seem to buy into the crap that the US government (and its media dogs) seems to feed you people.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')nd yeah. I think we should leave. Not because we're defeated. We could kick the ass of the whole Middle East if we weren't so pansy assed about PC rules.
Yeah, just like you did in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, you should just bomb them but then if you did the whole world might actually stop going along with your governmetns bullshit policies and stand up to them.
by eric_b » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 18:18:40
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NiKfUrY69', '
')So lets get our facts correct.
Indeed.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NiKfUrY69', '
')War is hell. People die. In a war, more civilians die than military, historically.
Thank you for sharing this brilliant and irrelevant observation.
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('NiKfUrY69', '
')If you live in a despotically controlled country - too bad. Either overthrow the bastards or live with it. You either earn your freedom or you deserve your slavery.
It is not the job of my country or its troops or children to come pull you out of the slavery that you lack the balls to fix for your self.
Earn your democracy - we did.
Anyone that thinks you can conquer a country and implement democracy is stupid.
Let’s go further……….
The Middle East may have BEEN the cradle of civilization, but they have not progressed past the “Terrible Twos” of toddler hood since. They would not appreciate Democracy if Allah shoved it into their turbans.
Idiot.
The primary reason the middle east is hopelessly clusterfucked
is the 100+ years of western meddling.
The US at one point added Saddam, remember. Perhaps you also
remember the CIA aided Iranian coup which lead the Shaw of
Iran. Or the US indirect support of the Iran/Iraq war. Perhaps
you remember the creation of Israel, which is another added
stressor in the entire region. Israel likely wouldn't exist if not for
the US.
And it's now becomming evident (obvious actually) that Saddam
was much more adept at holding the many factions in Iraq
together than the US will ever be.
So I'm having trouble understanding what you are other posters
are trying to drive at when you state war is hell. No shit, but
that doesn't mean the US should have ever invaded Iraq (again)
nor does it mean we should remain there.
by rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 18:41:41
$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eric_b', 'A')nd it's now becomming evident (obvious actually) that Saddam
was much more adept at holding the many factions in Iraq
together than the US will ever be.
Good point. Maybe the reason we removed him, worth considering....
So, which is easier to keep in line, one good sized country that at least has some agricultural capability and some untapped reserves; or a fractured, dependent state that has to trade with people they hate just to avoid starvation.
I'll have to give the Administration a few bonus points for cleverness if they can make a disollution of Iraq seem like the only realistic course from the perspective of Turkey and Iran. I think Iran would buy it in a heartbeat; Turkey would need some "convincing".
abundance fleeting
men falling like hungry leaves
decay masters all
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