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THE Torture Thread (merged)

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General interest discussions, not necessarily related to depletion.

Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby Specop_007 » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 13:20:35

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('PolestaR', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('armegeddon', 'I') heard on the radio the following:
there was signs of barbaric torture while they were alive, their eyes were gouged out, genitals cut off and stuffed down their throats, hearts were cut out, they were beheaded. The bodies were then desecrated, booby trapped, and the road leading to them was lined with IED's.


Pfft, there are worse ways to go. Ask SpecOp in heaven.


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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 13:45:43

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n this particular case, an Arclight strike might be a fair reward


there is no justification for any "reward"! Have you never heard about what the US did in Fallujah? about the white mustard gas that ate peoples skin right off their bones? About the tens of thousands of people who were eaten alive when the US let white mustard loose in a low altitiude burst? There is no cure or way to reverse it once you get that stuff on you. Can you possibly imagine a worse way to die?

The US should and needs to get the hell out of there now. there is no justification for staying there since you already there anyway.

What about Abu Ghairab? Have you not heard that there are much worse tortures being committed by the US than what happened there? Sorry but that was pretty fucking tame at Abu Ghairab. We know the US is doing much worse mutiliations. Actually I guess it would be only fair to qualify that the US's "contractors" are the ones doing the nasty stuff.

So they kill off and mutilate two of your GI's. I feel very sorry for them and their families, but in the larger scheme of things two is a pretty paltry number when compared to the number of people from Fallujah! and you think that gives you the right to start another wholsale slaughter of civilians.

If may assuage your guilty consciounces to compare it to Veitnam where you claim that "everyone" was in the resisitance, but that is not necessarily the case.

Just because you think it doesn't make it true.
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby SoothSayer » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 14:16:44

uNkNowN ElEmEnt this is simply a tactical them-or-us situation.

Most of the combatants do not have a "big picture" of the situation.

If the US does nothing then this sort of situation will happen again.

However if the US spells out clearly what happens after such an incident then maybe these incidents will occur less often.

I would rather that "our" side has an improved chance of survival ... even if "their" side gets punished.

That's the the world works.
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby ashurbanipal » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 14:33:47

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') would rather that "our" side has an improved chance of survival ... even if "their" side gets punished.

That's the the world works.


It doesn't appear to me that the world "works" all that well. Maybe this attitude of valuing ourselves more than others is part of why.
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby SoothSayer » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 14:40:36

Maybe this attitude of valuing ourselves more than others is part of why.

I value myself & my family & my friends and possibly my neighbours more than others.

I would be worried if anyone expressed any different opinion about themselves or their family.
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby eastbay » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 14:51:10

Imagine how angry people must be to do things like this; anger developed and nurtured by the US military occupation. The US military occupation of Iraq serves no purpose other than forming more anger. The result of this madness can only be more and more anger and brutality by those resisting the occupation.

The sooner the US leaves the better things will be for everyone (well, other than the economic interests of those profiting from the insanity). :twisted:
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 14:53:00

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')f the US does nothing then this sort of situation will happen again.


What are you trying to say they started it so you have to retaliate?

First of all: I am pretty sure that you invaded them, and that they probably figure that you started it. I am pretty sure that you started the wholesale slaughter by surrounding cities and not letting any men over the age of 15 out, regardless of whether they were civilians or not and devastating the city.

Second: this retaliation thing only works in stategic schools of thought if you "retaliate in kind" that means same amount of damage, same kinds or similar methods used (ie: swords for swords etc).

Third: How do you think conflicts like Ireland got going? One starts, the other relatiates, the other acts again and the other retaliates again. Its a self-perpetuating cycle. It doesn't end until someone says enough.

There are only two ways known of saying enough: 1) Engagement: nuke them and make it so they are so overwhelmed they can't relatiate again. 2) Disengagement: walk away (doing a Ghandi) or seek a diplomatic solution.

The US can't seek a Diplomatic solution becuase 1) no one believes a damn word they say anymore and diplomacy depends on being truthful so you can mediate a common ground. 2) everyone knows the US has far too much at stake in Iraq to believe they would keep their word while still occupying Iraq and 3) too many countries are complicit in the US's actions even though they aren't in there with troops.

By being complicit you are buying into the bully concept that you have to be there, or have any right to be there which is the grounds behind the school of thought that can claim that it is a proper retaliatory stike. Basic war strategy dude.
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby FairMaiden » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 14:59:44

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')it is survival for the jihadists and they are complelled to convert us or kill us.


I studied Islam for a VERY brief period but Jihad does NOT mean you convert or kill opposition. It means a "struggle" of faith which could be internal or external (the external could be military action). This is not a jihad...this is a country under occupation and attack. ANY country - whether it be dominated by Islamic or Christian religions - would have individuals who would fight for their freedom and their country should they find themselves under attack and occupation.

Think about it - who do you think they are trying to convert? The soldiers??
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby RG73 » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 15:06:20

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', ' ')Have you never heard about what the US did in Fallujah? about the white mustard gas that ate peoples skin right off their bones? About the tens of thousands of people who were eaten alive when the US let white mustard loose in a low altitiude burst? There is no cure or way to reverse it once you get that stuff on you. Can you possibly imagine a worse way to die?


No, I didn't hear anything about the US using chemical weapons in Iraq. This is a pretty serious charge--do you actually have a verifiable source for this? Given the amount of public sentiment against the war, both here and abroad, and given the flimsy pretext of attacking because of WMDs, I find it difficult to believe the US would use chemical weapons in Iraq. But I have an open mind. Please direct me to your source for this.

The US should and needs to get the hell out of there now. there is no justification for staying there since you already there anyway.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')hat about Abu Ghairab? Have you not heard that there are much worse tortures being committed by the US than what happened there? Sorry but that was pretty fucking tame at Abu Ghairab.


Well this much I know. But it doesn't surprise me at all. That sort of thing is typical for prisons around the world. They tend to bring out the worst in people.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'W')e know the US is doing much worse mutiliations.


I very much doubt the US is doing worse than gouging out eyes and feeding genitals to their prisoners. To do worse, they would have to flay their victims or draw and quarter them. It is hard to top what was done to those soldiers. In all fairness, we're no more than as bad as them.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')Actually I guess it would be only fair to qualify that the US's "contractors" are the ones doing the nasty stuff.


Well when you lynch and torture contractors, they tend to do that back to you.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'S')o they kill off and mutilate two of your GI's. I feel very sorry for them and their families, but in the larger scheme of things two is a pretty paltry number when compared to the number of people from Fallujah! and you think that gives you the right to start another wholsale slaughter of civilians.

Did those two soldiers personally slaughter many civilians? Probably not. Thus, there is no justification morally for what was done to them. If we are to accept that revenge is an ethical principle (I'm not sure that such a case can even be made), it would be near impossible to make a case that revenge can be committed against parties who are not responsible for the original parties loss.
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby ashurbanipal » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 15:09:03

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I') value myself & my family & my friends and possibly my neighbours more than others.

I would be worried if anyone expressed any different opinion about themselves or their family.


Why would that worry you?
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby RG73 » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 15:17:41

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('eastbay', 'I')magine how angry people must be to do things like this; anger developed and nurtured by the US military occupation.


No, I can't actually imagine being so angry that I'd gouge out someone's eyes and cut their dick off and shove it down their throat.

This is such a cop out argument. It has been used to justify the same sort of behavior from the Palestinians. In fact, there is no justification ever for such behavior. None. Lots of people have been subject to occupation historically without resorting to such barbarism.

India was occupied by Britain and the British did horrible things to them. India won their freedom without using violence. Go figure. African-Americans in the US were slaves and subject to torture and all manner of bad treatment. Again, never resorted to torturing their oppressors back, and won much of their rights through non-violence.

Iraqis can end this all very simply. Act like rational human beings from here on out. Practice non-violence. Then everytime the US commits another crime, they look worse and worse. Eventually international and domestic pressure will force the US out because you cannot win a P.R. war against an any that doesn't fight back. The actions these Iraqi's are taking only infuriate the American public and give Bush more reason to continue the occupation, and yes, the killing of Iraqi civilians.


$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he US military occupation of Iraq serves no purpose other than forming more anger. The result of this madness can only be more and more anger and brutality by those resisting the occupation.

The sooner the US leaves the better things will be for everyone (well, other than the economic interests of those profiting from the insanity). :twisted:


Just because you are angry doesn't mean you act out on it. On a smaller scale: we have a number of serial killers in the U.S. They get caught now and again after having tortured and eaten a few unlucky souls. The response of the families of the deceased is not to torture and eat the serial killer--even if such a thing were possible. People have tremendous anger and grief, but they deal with it in a mature, responsible manner. We're dealing with a culture with no conscious and the mentality of a 5 year old (I'll concede that American leadership is equally without conscious and immature). That a great injustice is done to you does not give you a right to do a great injustice to another.
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby NiKfUrY69 » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 15:20:32

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'H')ave you never heard about what the US did in Fallujah? about the white mustard gas that ate peoples skin right off their bones?


Uh.... no such thing as "White Mustard Gas".

So lets get our facts correct.

You are referring to "White Phosphorus", which is not banned under the UN Incinderary Ban and is less damaging overall than Mustard Gas - which is banned. You can survive white phosphorus. The new versions of mustard gas will kill you every time.

Of a more insideous nature would be the rampant use of Depleted Uranium (DU) rounds. Its R A D I O A C T I V E! and doesn't go away. Birth defects, lasts for centuries, blah, blah. Not much being said about this though, curious thing.

Now - Comparing Abu Grabass prisoner treatment (gee we hurt your feelings and humiliated you) to tortuous death (with an end head whacking) tells me whose pocket you're in.

Abu Grabass occured because of a slacker female Army officer that did not maintain discipline in her unit and it rolled downhill through the ranks. No officers were prosecuted, only enlisted. Hmmm. Sparing the elite and punishing the drones. Tsk, tsk.

Let me put this war thing in a nut shell for you, from my view.

War is hell. People die. In a war, more civilians die than military, historically.

If you live in a despotically controlled country - too bad. Either overthrow the bastards or live with it. You either earn your freedom or you deserve your slavery.

It is not the job of my country or its troops or children to come pull you out of the slavery that you lack the balls to fix for your self.

Earn your democracy - we did.

Anyone that thinks you can conquer a country and implement democracy is stupid.

Let’s go further……….

The Middle East may have BEEN the cradle of civilization, but they have not progressed past the “Terrible Twos” of toddler hood since. They would not appreciate Democracy if Allah shoved it into their turbans.

So screw it – put Saddam back in charge on our way out and have a nice day.

And if they don’t like that, too bad. Die.

As for the oil……..

It’s about time corporate Amerikkka gets off its military-complex ass, quit screwing the citizens of the USA through its purchase of its elected leaders and finally come up with an answer to the energy question.

Not a happy camper - NiK
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 15:22:45

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('RG73', '
')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'e')aten alive when the US let white mustard loose in a low altitiude burst?

No, I didn't hear anything about the US using chemical weapons in Iraq.


Technically and legally, white phosphorous is a type of incendiary munition, not a "chemical weapon" like mustard gas. Calling it "white mustard" and using the word "cure" is meant to invoke the idea that it is really a chemical weapon.

My only comment really is that if you want white phosphorus to be classified as a chemical weapon, you need to change the law.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he US should and needs to get the hell out of there now. there is no justification for staying there since you already there anyway.


If we leave, they may decide we are no longer a credible aggressor. They'll switch to trading oil in Euros in a heartbeat. Thus, we are not leaving. And regardless of who wins the next presidential election, we still won't be leaving.
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby RG73 » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 15:27:12

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('FairMaiden', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', ' ')it is survival for the jihadists and they are complelled to convert us or kill us.


I studied Islam for a VERY brief period but Jihad does NOT mean you convert or kill opposition.


But, in fact, this is how the religion got its start. It is probably the only religion that was actually started by a warlord and came to prominence by converting and killing the opposition. Every Muslim who complains about occupation must remember that Medina was a Jewish city until Mohammed rode into town and put all the Jews to the sword.

One might also want to ask the Indians about their experience with jihad, which involved Muslim armies attacking them, occupying them, converting them and then killing millions who refused to convert (or just for the hell of it). Christianity is equally guilty of this process (though it did not start as bloodily as Islam). But lets face it--Islam began with the sword and has yet to put it down.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t means a "struggle" of faith which could be internal or external (the external could be military action).


If it really meant an internal struggle to most then we'd have an entirely different relationship with the Islamic world. Unfortunately, Islam has not evolved to this point yet. This is understandable. It took Christianity a good 1500 years or so to put down the sword. Islam has another 500 years or so of acting out left in it before the mellow out.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 't')his is a country under occupation and attack. ANY country - whether it be dominated by Islamic or Christian religions - would have individuals who would fight for their freedom and their country should they find themselves under attack and occupation.


Sure, I totally agree.

But torturing people gratuitously is not part of the struggle for freedom. It is sadistic bloodlust. I can accept killing an enemy soldier--but make it a clean execution and a shot to the head.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')hink about it - who do you think they are trying to convert? The soldiers??

I don't think they are trying to convert, nor do I think they are doing anything but using the war as an excuse to unleash their demented sadism. What they are doing is not fighting a war; Jeffrey Dahmer is Jeffrey Dahmer, you know? This is sick and twisted serial killer stuff. I'm sure these guys are out torturing animals in their free time and go home to beat their wives.
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby uNkNowN ElEmEnt » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 15:45:27

Dude, you never heard what happened in Fallujah? I was sick for weeks.

WARNING: Graphic pictures

MORE (this one youmay wonat to skip, there are pages of them) Graphic pictures
____________________
Articles:

Atrocities with chemical weapons
____________________

The controversy has raged for 12 months. Ever since last November, when US forces battled to clear Fallujah of insurgents, there have been repeated claims that troops used "unusual" weapons in the assault that all but flattened the Iraqi city. Specifically, controversy has focussed on white phosphorus shells (WP) - an incendiary weapon usually used to obscure troop movements but which can equally be deployed as an offensive weapon against an enemy. The use of such incendiary weapons against civilian targets is banned by international treaty.

The debate was reignited last week when an Italian documentary claimed Iraqi civilians - including women and children - had been killed by terrible burns caused by WP. The documentary, Fallujah: the Hidden Massacre, by the state broadcaster RAI, cited one Fallujah human-rights campaigner who reported how residents told how "a rain of fire fell on the city". Yesterday, demonstrators organised by the Italian communist newspaper, Liberazione, protested outside the US Embassy in Rome. Today, another protest is planned for the US Consulate in Milan. "The 'war on terrorism' is terrorism," one of the newspaper's commentators declared.
______________
Almost one year after these allegations came to light, a new documentary claims to provide fresh evidence of the use of chemical weapons in Fallujah. In the film, eyewitnesses and ex-US soldiers say white phosphorus bombs were used in Fallujah. Rai says this amounts to the illegal use of chemical weapons and says they were used indiscriminately against civilian populations.
________________________
November 9, 2005 on the BBC News website, under the title US 'uses incendiary arms' in Iraq I could still read:

Italian state TV, RAI, has broadcast a documentary accusing the US military of using white phosphorus bombs against civilians in the Iraqi city of Fallujah.

Rai says this amounts to the illegal use of chemical arms, though the bombs are considered incendiary devices.

Eyewitnesses and ex-US soldiers say the weapon was used in built-up areas in the insurgent-held city.

The US military denies this, but admits using white phosphorus bombs in Iraq to illuminate battlefields.


Yesterday I wrote on why the BBC NEWS is wrong when (in its article: “though the bombs are considered incendiary devices” and with an email to me: “White Phosphorous is not a chemical weapon”) it denies that the white phosphorus is a chemical weapon.

According to international law, any chemical used to harm or kill people or animals is considered a chemical weapon. In the words of Peter Kaiser (Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons):

“Any chemical that is used against humans or against animals that causes harm or death through the toxic properties of the chemical, ARE considered chemical weapons and as long as the purpose is to cause harm - that is prohibited behaviour.” (You can listen to his words directly by following this link and click the “Play” under the photo on the right at the bottom of the page)
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby NiKfUrY69 » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 15:52:07

Bullets are a chemical weapon - they cause lead poisoning.

Dead is dead.

Funny how it's only evil when the US does it.

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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby NiKfUrY69 » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 16:01:18

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', 'D')ude, you never heard what happened in Fallujah? I was sick for weeks.

WARNING: Graphic pictures

MORE (this one youmay wonat to skip, there are pages of them) Graphic pictures
____________________
Articles:

Atrocities with chemical weapons


Got any pix of the unarmed, captured, tortured, hacked up American soldiers?

Of course not.

Any body want to guess what would have happened to female soldiers?

Of course not.

"Holyier than thou" folks can bite me - NiK
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby rwwff » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 16:11:42

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('uNkNowN ElEmEnt', '
')MORE (this one youmay wonat to skip, there are pages of them) Graphic pictures


Umm, what did you think war casualties were supposed to look like?
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby ashurbanipal » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 16:18:30

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'N')o, I can't actually imagine being so angry that I'd gouge out someone's eyes and cut their dick off and shove it down their throat.


It's fairly clear that, given the right incentive, almost everyone is capable of such cruelty and barbarism. It really doesn't take any more anger to do this than to shoot a child in the back of the head. It's more a question of convenience and normative expectations.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')his is such a cop out argument.


Any solution based on that notion will not work. It's fairly clear that: a) human beings did this to other human beings and b) they were motivated somehow to do so--meaning that they weren't automatons or doing it against their will. That is not a cop out, that is a description of reality. Until we understand why someone would do this to another human being, specifically in this situation, we'll never resolve the problem or prevent a recurrence.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')t has been used to justify the same sort of behavior from the Palestinians.


I'm not aware of any stories of Palestinians having done this. Nor have I heard stories of the Israelis doing it to the Palestinians (to be fair). However, it is unreasonable to expect someone to not react violently when violence is done to them.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')n fact, there is no justification ever for such behavior. None.


Such an absolute statement! Obviously, there is justification for it. Suppose God (assume for the sake of argument there is an all-powerful but whimsical God) told you he would destroy the universe and condemn all living things to an eternity of torment unless you did such a thing to some designated victim. Would you be justified?

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'L')ots of people have been subject to occupation historically without resorting to such barbarism.

I'm not aware of a single instance.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')ndia was occupied by Britain and the British did horrible things to them. India won their freedom without using violence. Go figure.

It was ultimately non-violent resistance that led to the English leaving India, but there were many instances of Indians treating the English or Indian collaborators with barbarity. Nor is it the case that most occupations

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'A')frican-Americans in the US were slaves and subject to torture and all manner of bad treatment. Again, never resorted to torturing their oppressors back, and won much of their rights through non-violence.

Again, this is not correct. There were many instances of slave revolts, some of which got very violent.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'I')raqis can end this all very simply. Act like rational human beings from here on out.

Rationality and non-violence are not entirely the same. Is it rational, for instance, to attempt to reason with a man who is about to kill my child, or my wife, or my brother(i.e. is past the threatening stage and is taking rapid active steps towards execution)? Or is it rational to attempt to intervene? I believe the latter.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')ractice non-violence. Then everytime the US commits another crime, they look worse and worse.

Except that the U.S. would be in control of the media and would be able to manage their image. Many instances of barbarity were committed at Abu Ghraib before anyone found out about it.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'E')ventually international and domestic pressure will force the US out because you cannot win a P.R. war against an any that doesn't fight back. The actions these Iraqi's are taking only infuriate the American public and give Bush more reason to continue the occupation, and yes, the killing of Iraqi civilians.

1) it doesn't appear the U.S. is that interested in world opinion at the moment
2) it's easy enough to infuriate the American public without this sort of thing. You just have to say that something like this happened, or make up any old story that you like. The people of the middle east are quite demonized in the eyes of the American public already; 99 out of every 100 people in the U.S. would believe any lie anyone cared to tell.
3) if the story reported from, for instance, Haditha is to be believed, the U.S. will kill Iraqi civilians out of all proportion to a provocation and with no regard for justice. Haditha is, incidentally, the twentieth (or so) such story that I've read--this one just happened to make headlines.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'T')he sooner the US leaves the better things will be for everyone (well, other than the economic interests of those profiting from the insanity).

Yes.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'J')ust because you are angry doesn't mean you act out on it.

But there is a time to act out of anger. Part of the price paid for forming a society is that members of a society are identified by their association therewith. These soldiers may have conducted themselves with honor, but so long as they stayed, they bear the stain of every injustice piled up by other soldiers on the Iraqi people.

I hate barbarous acts, and I wish this hadn't happened. I wish this whole bloody mess hadn't happened, but I would remind everyone that the United States is the aggressor here, and apparently that aggression is now widely acknowledged to be unjustified.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'O')n a smaller scale: we have a number of serial killers in the U.S. They get caught now and again after having tortured and eaten a few unlucky souls. The response of the families of the deceased is not to torture and eat the serial killer--even if such a thing were possible.

Oh, I think many of them would like to--except maybe for the eating part. Watch the video of Jeffrey Dahmer's trial when he had to face the victims' families. There was one lady who completely freaked out. There are plenty of times that people express a desire to see those who have victimized them die in a horrible manner--lethal injection is often remarked as being too good for them.

That doesn't mean that such things should be allowed. But your assertion that somehow the same anger and capacity for cruelty doesn't exist in the U.S. is incorrect.

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('', 'P')eople have tremendous anger and grief, but they deal with it in a mature, responsible manner. We're dealing with a culture with no conscious and the mentality of a 5 year old (I'll concede that American leadership is equally without conscious and immature). That a great injustice is done to you does not give you a right to do a great injustice to another.

And here I'm at a complete loss. You think that it's odd that a culture wouldn't be conscious? "Culture" denotes an abstract group of common characteristics distinct in value from other similar characteristics held in common by other people. Why would such a thing be conscious?

As for the "mentality of a five year old" comment--I find this simply incredible. If we concede that the primary reason we're there is to protect our access to oil, it seems to me that it is Americans that have the lower mentality. It's a sign of adulthood that one might die, kill, or demonstrate barbarity for one's family or some other group with which one identifies. It's a sign of immaturity that one would kill to make sure that X-boxes can still be shipped or that SUV's could still be viable transportation.
In a world that is not whole, you have got to fight just to keep your soul.

-Ben Harper-
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Re: The two US soldiers were tortured barbarically

Postby Free » Wed 21 Jun 2006, 16:21:33

Anybody remember the movie "Red Dawn"?

What would you do if some foreigners (muslims?) liberated the US of the evil dictator Bush?

Even if you hated Bush, would you welcome your new overlords and their puppet regime? Would you let them rob your country blind and say "thank you very much"?

Would you rather fight alongside your countrymen, even if you hated some of them before, or would you support the foreigners?

Wouldn't you call somebody who did the latter call a coward and a traitor, and rightly so?

Cut your losses and accept that you lost the occupation of Iraq. Sooner or later you will have to do it anyway, and the longer it takes, the costlier the defeat will be.
"Democracy means the opportunity to be everyone's slave."
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