[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('garyp', ' ')I posed the original question to see if anyone, prompted by realisation that the usual suggested solutions weren't tenable on the large scale, could identify any more workable approaches. The idea would then be to attempt to integrate these into a workable overall plan and try and get that in front of those that could make it happen.

Instead what I came across was a total inability (except for one person) to deal with the real world, instead retreating into a la la land of failed ideas and wishful thinking.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('garyp', 'A')fter all, I'm the one saying that people will not behave rationally and will not give up on cherished ideas when put under pressure.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'C')ontrary to what many think here think power down is not a workable solution. In fact it is not a solution at all. It is like saying we don't have a solution, now go kill yourself. The power down crowd as turned into a death cult combined with mad max suvivalism.

[Ibon]

What is the fear or sense of failure that is associated with a culture "Powering Down". Maybe this is one of the hurdles that society has to overcome. This association that powering down somehow means a compromise to ones quality of life. On the individual level I guess these must to be some of the fears:

1) Fear of physical labour
2) Fear of sharing transportation with others
3) Fear of not being able to satisfy ones recreational needs
4) A sense of restriction to ones personal freedom of mobility
5) Fear of not being able to consume
6) A sense that ones skills will not have an application in a
powered down world.

What else?

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', ' ')Contrary to what many think here think power down is not a workable solution. In fact it is not a solution at all. It is like saying we don't have a solution, now go kill yourself. The power down crowd as turned into a death cult combined with mad max suvivalism.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Ibon', 'W')hat is the fear or sense of failure that is associated with a culture "Powering Down".

[Novus]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'S')o, let me get this straight: You have overextended yourself and you live way beyond your means. You are in debt up to your eyeballs, and going deeper into debt every day.

[Ludi]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'Y')our solution is to get out of debt by quitting your job and dropping out of society so the debt collectors can't collect. Real brilliant Monty. Have you ever stopped to think honestly about what power down really means. I mean really means in the end of all ends. Powerdown = Suicide. Nothing more to see here.

[Novus]

It is kind of hard to proove a negative. Maybe you can keep 6.5 billion people alive without industrial technology but I just don't see it. What are you going to do with the raw sewage alone without power? If billions of people have to die to have a power down what makes you so special that you going to be survivor? I am not so arrogant as to think if 5 billion have to die I will be numbered among the survivors.

Powerdown equals mass death
Mass death equals my own death
Powerdown eqauls my own death
Embracing powerdown equals embracing my own death
Embracing my own death eqauls suicide
Therefore; Powerdown equals suicide

[Ibon]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', ' ')Almost anything can be done if you want it bad enough. In WWII America built 50,000 liberty ships. Car manufactures started making tanks. Typewriter manufacturers started making guns. Kitchen appliance makers started making airplane parts. Cosmetics makers started producing bullet casings. There is no reason American, European, and Chinese industry couldn't start pumping out windmills and stirling solar by the tens of thousands. Don't tell me what can't done.

It could be done in less than ten years. No one would lose their jobs either. Go back to the WWII example. No one was let go when GM started making tanks for the war or when the rest of economy went into war production. In 1906 the city of Paterson, NJ burned to the ground and then three weeks later the city was hit with record floods. Instead of moping about in gloom and doom over the disaster they just simply rebuilt the entire city. All the newly unemployed workers picked up shovels, hammers, and saws and rebuilt like nothing happened. There was no outside help either. The mayor even turned all the charity checks, saying they didn't need any help. That is what a can do attitude is capable of and you my friend under-estimate it big time.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', 'S')o, let me get this straight: You have overextended yourself and you live way beyond your means. You are in debt up to your eyeballs, and going deeper into debt every day.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'H')ave you ever stopped to think honestly about what power down really means.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', ' ')Maybe you can keep 6.5 billion people alive without industrial technology but I just don't see it.

[Jack]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'I')t is kind of hard to proove a negative. Maybe you can keep 6.5 billion people alive without industrial technology but I just don't see it. What are you going to do with the raw sewage alone without power? If billions of people have to die to have a power down what makes you so special that you going to be survivor? I am not so arrogant as to think if 5 billion have to die I will be numbered among the survivors.

Powerdown equals mass death
Mass death equals my own death
Powerdown eqauls my own death
Embracing powerdown equals embracing my own death
Embracing my own death eqauls suicide
Therefore; Powerdown equals suicide

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'P')owerdown equals mass death
Mass death equals my own death
Powerdown eqauls my own death
Embracing powerdown equals embracing my own death
Embracing my own death eqauls suicide
Therefore; Powerdown equals suicide

[Zardoz]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('MonteQuest', '')$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'H')ave you ever stopped to think honestly about what power down really means.

[garyp]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', 'I')t is kind of hard to proove a negative. Maybe you can keep 6.5 billion people alive without industrial technology but I just don't see it. What are you going to do with the raw sewage alone without power? If billions of people have to die to have a power down what makes you so special that you going to be survivor? I am not so arrogant as to think if 5 billion have to die I will be numbered among the survivors.

Powerdown equals mass death
Mass death equals my own death
Powerdown eqauls my own death
Embracing powerdown equals embracing my own death
Embracing my own death eqauls suicide
Therefore; Powerdown equals suicide

[Concerned]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('Novus', '
')In NAZI Germany the Germans were able to scale up the Fishor-Tropsch process to meet all their military needs. The time measured to do it was not in years, but in months. The Germans never lost a battle for lack of fuel. Almost anything can be done if you want it bad enough.

[TonyPrep]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('garyp', 'W')e REALLY need solutions that can make a difference, that people can buy into.

[MonteQuest]

$this->bbcode_second_pass_quote('garyp', ' ')Now imagine telling them they have to grow, and really cook, their own food. Imagine telling them their power supply probably wouldn't be reliable. Their clothes would have to last and they can forget fashion. Tell them they won't be able to afford to travel far, that their life would be limited to the immediate area.